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Thread: Question about MOC's philosophy on use of open carry gatherings

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Question about MOC's philosophy on use of open carry gatherings

    Transcript of attached screenshot from MOC's Facebook page:
    Jared A. Coyne: "Perhaps MOC should have some open carry gatherings in pistol free zones. This way SB 59 will look more appealing."
    December 3 at 1:58pm

    Phillip Hofmeister: "Jared A. Coyne: Funny, before I saw you post this, I have passed that in the back channel I have to Jase Bolger. "
    December 3 at 7:18pm
    I believe it is generally accepted by OC advocates, and reflected in the language of most OC organizations "mission statements" or "goals" (including this website and MOC's), that open carry exercise and gatherings are for the purpose of gaining acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities.

    The comments above seem to suggest that MOC consider using open carry gatherings in PFZs, not to gain public or authorities acceptance of OC in PFZ's, but to drive the public or authorities to be attracted to SB 59's ban on OC in PFZs, thus "SB 59 will look more appealing." Phil, President of MOC, seems to agree and states that he's already mentioned that use of open carry gatherings in PFZ's to Jase Bolger, a Michigan politician.

    Phil/MOC, would you please clarify this exchange?
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    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Oh I am sure it was a joke, Phil wouldn't do anything to harm the open carriers in Michigan
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Transcript of attached screenshot from MOC's Facebook page:


    I believe it is generally accepted by OC advocates, and reflected in the language of most OC organizations "mission statements" or "goals" (including this website and MOC's), that open carry exercise and gatherings are for the purpose of gaining acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities.

    The comments above seem to suggest that MOC consider using open carry gatherings in PFZs, not to gain public or authorities acceptance of OC in PFZ's, but to drive the public or authorities to be attracted to SB 59's ban on OC in PFZs, thus "SB 59 will look more appealing." Phil, President of MOC, seems to agree and states that he's already mentioned that use of open carry gatherings in PFZ's to Jase Bolger, a Michigan politician.

    Phil/MOC, would you please clarify this exchange?
    I OC'd in a library when I was told I couldn't. I OC'd in a police station and had my gun seized because I was told I couldn't. A large group of people OC'd rifles in downtown Birmingham because they were told they couldn't. I'm not sure any of those activities were done to "gain acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities". It was done to prove a point, for legal and political reasons.
    Last edited by scot623; 12-07-2012 at 04:37 PM.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Seems to me that MOC is open to using whatever(legal) means are necessary to try and advance a bill they support. How is that any different than what every other group does when trying to get a bill they support passed??
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    Dan, Phil and I also talked about events in PFZ's. The reasoning being, everyone is hitting the ceiling at the prospect of "losing" the ability to do so. After 59 passes, I plan on holding an OC dinner in a bar to prove the point that we CAN STILL OC in a PFZ. Based on the huge ground swell of people who want to OC in PFZ's, I expect it to be the largest event MOC has ever had.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I OC'd in a library when I was told I couldn't. I OC'd in a police station and had my gun seized because I was told I couldn't. A large group of people OC'd rifles in downtown Birmingham because they were told they couldn't. I'm not sure any of those activities were done to "gain acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities". It was done to prove a point, for legal and political reasons.
    Rob, I stipulate that "gaining acceptance" does include the more assertive activity you mention to prove the points you cite. Sometimes, educating the public in that way about these points is the route to gaining their acceptance of OC.

    Now, would you please offer your comments directly to the the following?
    I believe it is generally accepted by OC advocates, and reflected in the language of most OC organizations "mission statements" or "goals" (including this website and MOC's), that open carry exercise and gatherings are for the purpose of gaining acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities.

    The comments above seem to suggest that MOC consider using open carry gatherings in PFZs, not to gain public or authorities acceptance of OC in PFZ's, but to drive the public or authorities to be attracted to SB 59's ban on OC in PFZs, thus "SB 59 will look more appealing." Phil, President of MOC, seems to agree and states that he's already mentioned that use of open carry gatherings in PFZ's to Jase Bolger, a Michigan politician.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    After all the posts about "losing" the right to OC in a PFZ.....PEOPLE ARE NOT SERIOUSLY GOING TO GET PISSED WHEN WE OC IN A PFZ, ARE THEY?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Now, would you please offer your comments directly to the the following?
    Sadly no, only Phil can speak to his words.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Seems to me that MOC is open to using whatever(legal) means are necessary to try and advance a bill they support. How is that any different than what every other group does when trying to get a bill they support passed??
    I believe it is generally accepted by OC advocates, and reflected in the language of most OC organizations "mission statements" or "goals" (including this website and MOC's), that open carry exercise and gatherings are for the purpose of gaining acceptance of open carry by the public and authorities.

    The quotes in the OP seem to suggest MOC may view use of open carry in PFZs, not to gain acceptance of it, but to use some people's distaste for it to drive them to get SB 59 through, with it's ban on OC in PFZs. That would be a 180 degree contradiction of this website's mission to "normalize" and gain acceptance of open carry, and I believe MOC's as well.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    This is the most nonsence of a post I've ever seen on OCDO. So after a bill banning OC in PFZ's passes that MOC supported your going to have a event in a PFZ and you think more people with actually show up? The logic seems quite ludicrous.
    I won't hold my breath for your RSVP then? Oh, and since your reading comprehension skills are lacking...OC WILL NOT BE BANNED IN PFZ's, it will just require permission now. Got it?
    Last edited by scot623; 12-07-2012 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I won't hold my breath for your RSVP then? Oh, and since your reading comprehension skills are lacking...OC WILL NOT BE BANNED IN PFZ's, it will just require permission now. Got it?
    Could you please cite this assertion? I was under the impression that the bill was useless unless it stated OC in these areas is now OFF-LIMITS, because the Governor would not sign it without these provisions.
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    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Reference to deleted post removed.
    So you're not really sure what MOC's objectives are, are you?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1862881
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 12-07-2012 at 11:10 PM. Reason: removed reference to deleted post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Removed reference to deleted post.
    On the surface yes, but there is more to it than that. Overall this bill is a great advancement for carry in the state of Michigan. Also open carriers get a bad rep among the concealed carry community. Other gun right groups in the state fully support this bill. If MOC opposed it, it would look rather bad on us. Point is this bill puts us in a better place than we are today. The no OC provision is something that will have to be worked out later (if possible). Granted it'd probably have to be an enhanced CPL to be able to CC or OC. If this passes we'll see what we can do next legislative session and future legislative sessions.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 12-07-2012 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Removed reference to deleted post
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Removed reference to deleted post.
    The bill has language in it to allow a CPL holder to OC with written permission. So if an OC gathering in a bar was organized with permission to OC then the attendees could OC in a PFZ.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 12-07-2012 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Removed reference to deleted post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    So you're not really sure what MOC's objectives are, are you?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1862881
    Well as I have stated before, they should change their name if they are not in total support of OC. Having the name "MOC" is quite misleading if they do not actually support OC in every sense. I believe it is quite sensible to believe an organization with the name "Michigan Open Carry" would be devoted to protecting the right to OC. If this isn't the case then the name should be Michigan Carry -- leave "Open" out of it.
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    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Guys, can we not get too far off topic? The question is about "MOC's philosophy on use of open carry gatherings" and an attempt to clarify the comments quoted in the OP.

    Your opinion on the material I presented and the concern I have is welcome.

    Also, any authoritative representative of MOC is invited to clarify. The material implies that MOC might use open carry in PFZs to, in essence, irritate people or politicians about OC in PFZs and drive them to see SB 59 as more "appealing". Phil could too, but on another post he indicated he would only be announcing events from now on.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-07-2012 at 06:29 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The bill has language in it to allow a CPL holder to OC with written permission. So if an OC gathering in a bar was organized with permission to OC then the attendees could OC in a PFZ.
    Who will honestly give permission? I do not see any schools giving permission, and I would say very few churches would.

    You all can support the bill all you want; I don't have to deal with the oppression so I will venture out of here. I will say it is bad for the Country as a whole. Legislation such as this could be used to further restrictions in every state by saying we still have a right to carry, but only if we obtain outrageous amounts of training and permission! If it is ok in one state then why not in all of them? I do NOT support it!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Who will honestly give permission? I do not see any schools giving permission, and I would say very few churches would.

    You all can support the bill all you want; I don't have to deal with the oppression so I will venture out of here. I will say it is bad for the Country as a whole. Legislation such as this could be used to further restrictions in every state by saying we still have a right to carry, but only if we obtain outrageous amounts of training and permission! If it is ok in one state then why not in all of them? I do NOT support it!
    Can we not get too far off topic? The question is about "MOC's philosophy on use of open carry gatherings" and an attempt to clarify the comments quoted in the OP.

    Your opinion on the material I presented and the concern I have is welcome.

    Also, any authoritative representative of MOC is invited to clarify. The material implies that MOC might use open carry in PFZs to, in essence, irritate people or politicians about OC in PFZs and drive them to see SB 59 as more "appealing". Phil could too, but on another post he indicated he would only be announcing events from now on.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Well as I have stated before, they should change their name if they are not in total support of OC.
    They are in support of OC. But you are welcome to join MOC, attend the board meetings, and put forth your suggestions.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    They are in support of OC. But you are welcome to join MOC, attend the board meetings, and put forth your suggestions.
    Can we not get too far off topic? The question is about "MOC's philosophy on use of open carry gatherings" and an attempt to clarify the comments quoted in the OP.

    Your opinion on the material I presented and the concern I have is welcome.

    Also, any authoritative representative of MOC is invited to clarify. The material implies that MOC might use open carry in PFZs to, in essence, irritate people or politicians about OC in PFZs and drive them to see SB 59 as more "appealing". Phil could too, but on another post he indicated he would only be announcing events from now on.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Could you please cite this assertion? I was under the impression that the bill was useless unless it stated OC in these areas is now OFF-LIMITS, because the Governor would not sign it without these provisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The bill has language in it to allow a CPL holder to OC with written permission. So if an OC gathering in a bar was organized with permission to OC then the attendees could OC in a PFZ.

    The wording was only added after an MOC board member (who is "feverishly" trying to quash your OC right) suggested that at least a private property owner should be able to decide weather OC was ok on their property. I'm sooo sick of the MOC bashing already. Yes we are Michigan OPEN carry, our "main" focus is open carry but I believe that we are a gun rights organization first! I'm so sick of hearing about MOC somehow being behind the amendment and how happy we must feel about it. None of us are "HAPPY" about it at all but in an effort to play nice with others, because we are all on the same team here people and being a gun rights organization I feel like 3 steps forward and 1 back is still 2 steps forward. Were trying to make lemonade with lemons over here people can we please grow up and get the hell over it. Be displeased with the bill all you want, shout it on a mountain top! But stop talking like this was MOC's idea to add that amendment and it's the leaderships fault for all of this.

    DanM the very idea that MOC would seriously use gatherings at PFZ's to drive the public or authorities to be attracted to SB 59's ban on OC in PFZs to make it look more "appealing" is an insult!
    Last edited by Adams182; 12-07-2012 at 06:44 PM.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Can we not get too far off topic?
    No. This is the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Wanna site your changes in SB59? Asking permission from a school will go real far.
    How many schools allow OC now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    How many schools allow OC now?
    I OC in a school every time I vote, never been turned away. Several others do too. SB-59 would destroy my ability to do that legally. There is, however, lots of candy in there for concealed carry, which I like a lot. But MOC is not MCC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    I OC in a school every time I vote, never been turned away. Several others do too. SB-59 would destroy my ability to do that legally. There is, however, lots of candy in there for concealed carry, which I like a lot. But MOC is not MCC.
    I do to, but that isn't quite the same as walking little Johnny to class now is it? What schools allow parents to open carry? You can probably count them on one hand.

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