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Thread: Open carrying at the mall

  1. #1
    Regular Member Samantha86's Avatar
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    Open carrying at the mall

    Ok, so I am in Olympia and I don't go to the mall very much at all, and when I do, I never bring my gun inside. I went in there a couple weeks ago and there was a guy open carrying with his kid and wife, even though I have heard that is a no no. I heard it was private property and was told it wasn't welcome. So is it? or isn't it? I don't know who to call to ask, and if it isn't allowed, why isn't there a sign that says so? It seems everywhere I go that doesn't allow guns, won't put a sign up that says so. It seems as if they like confrontation.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot_Every_Night View Post
    Ok, so I am in Olympia and I don't go to the mall very much at all, and when I do, I never bring my gun inside. I went in there a couple weeks ago and there was a guy open carrying with his kid and wife, even though I have heard that is a no no. I heard it was private property and was told it wasn't welcome. So is it? or isn't it? I don't know who to call to ask, and if it isn't allowed, why isn't there a sign that says so? It seems everywhere I go that doesn't allow guns, won't put a sign up that says so. It seems as if they like confrontation.
    There doesn't exist in statutory or case law in this state a requirement that a "no guns" sign be posted.
    It's possible that the other OCer was employed by the mall, maybe he is known by the manager, or it could be as simple as no one saw his gun or complained so security didn't bother to talk to him.

    If an employee of the mall instructs you to leave then LEAVE if he has no authority that can be worked out later. generally in the retail world only managers and security guards can order you to leave, however this is by internal policy, if some fat teen tells you to scram and then calls the cops and presses charges, that could still be considered trespass under the law.

    Don't call and ask, but if you must call the main switchboard and ask to speak to security....

    Or that people carrying guns openly is so rare to them that it's not worth placing signs.... not confrontation...
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    Regular Member skeith5's Avatar
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    Re: Open carrying at the mall

    There are no laws in Washington that say you can't open carry at a mall. I'm sure your mileage may vary but it could be that nobody noticed the guy carrying who cared or they didn't want a confrontation. I'd carry and take my business elsewhere if they said anything.

    IANAL

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    Regular Member Samantha86's Avatar
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    That makes sense, I really don't feel comfortable anymore with out my gun within my reach. There is just too much going on anymore, especially because I am single, a woman, and alone a lot. Who knows what could happen. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    There are no laws in Washington that say you can't open carry at a mall. I'm sure your mileage may vary but it could be that nobody noticed the guy carrying who cared or they didn't want a confrontation. I'd carry and take my business elsewhere if they said anything.

    IANAL

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    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    I have COed in the South Hill mall a couple of times. They do have a interesting sign. Somebody has posted a picture of that sign somewhere.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot_Every_Night View Post
    Ok, so I am in Olympia and I don't go to the mall very much at all, and when I do, I never bring my gun inside. I went in there a couple weeks ago and there was a guy open carrying with his kid and wife, even though I have heard that is a no no. I heard it was private property and was told it wasn't welcome. So is it? or isn't it? I don't know who to call to ask, and if it isn't allowed, why isn't there a sign that says so? It seems everywhere I go that doesn't allow guns, won't put a sign up that says so. It seems as if they like confrontation.

    I would suggest that if you must go into a mall, carry concealed. Since you never know, someone might have a gun in there. To do so would not be an unlawful act. If "caught" you would be asked to leave, and trespassed if you refused. Same as if you were open carrying. What Paul Blart & crew don't know can't hurt YOU. Experience around here is generally that open carry is not tolerated at malls, and you will be asked to leave. Yes, there will inevitably be exceptions to this. Myself, I avoid malls as much as possible, but there's no way in hell I'd go into one unarmed.

    Remember, even if some place actually DOES have signs posted (my dr office this morning actually had a pretty big one), they bear NO FORCE OF LAW. To carry past such a sign is not unlawful EXCEPT those places (all gov't buildings) SPECIFICALLY mentioned in state law as off limits. And the feds of course.

    Concealed means concealed. Don't ask, don't tell.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    If you know they are not gun friendly then by all means carry concealed.

    Note that signage may not carry a penalty by law but being trespassed does and the way it stands they can refuse service to essentially anyone.

    I want to emphasize if you were found to be carrying you could be asked to leave and secure your firearm in your vehicle or trespassed for a period of time to forever regardless of intending to carry or not again or they just ignore it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    If you know they are not gun friendly then by all means carry concealed.

    Note that signage may not carry a penalty by law but being trespassed does and the way it stands they can refuse service to essentially anyone.

    I want to emphasize if you were found to be carrying you could be asked to leave and secure your firearm in your vehicle or trespassed for a period of time to forever regardless of intending to carry or not again or they just ignore it.
    Fine, then I would want a full refund on all my purchases made that day.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    I would suggest that if you must go into a mall, carry concealed. Since you never know, someone might have a gun in there. To do so would not be an unlawful act. If "caught" you would be asked to leave, and trespassed if you refused. Same as if you were open carrying. What Paul Blart & crew don't know can't hurt YOU. Experience around here is generally that open carry is not tolerated at malls, and you will be asked to leave. Yes, there will inevitably be exceptions to this. Myself, I avoid malls as much as possible, but there's no way in hell I'd go into one unarmed.

    Remember, even if some place actually DOES have signs posted (my dr office this morning actually had a pretty big one), they bear NO FORCE OF LAW. To carry past such a sign is not unlawful EXCEPT those places (all gov't buildings) SPECIFICALLY mentioned in state law as off limits. And the feds of course.

    Concealed means concealed. Don't ask, don't tell.
    I prefer to OC, so if I go into a Mall with my wife or my family (I am rarely in a Mall by myself), and they choose to confront me to tell me that my personal protective device is not welcome, I make a point of informing them that I will comply but ask that they let management know that as long as I my every day carry protective device is not welcome, I will consider that my money is also not welcome there either.

    That is why you will no longer find me in the Tacoma Mall (Simon Properties), and yes I have told them I will no longer patronize their facilities -In a direct email at that.

    They have not replied, as they do not care, there are thousands of shoppers who either are not 2A supporters or will simply roll-over and become non-law-abiding citizens in that they know that the Mall does not want weapons on their property, and will violate the property rights of the Owners and CC anyway. That to me is hypocrisy!

    Enough of the retailers that have brick & mortar stores in the Mall also have an on-line presence and I can order from them on-line, thus not giving my business or my $$ to the brick & mortar store paying rent to the mall properties.

    I look at it this way, if the on-line sales are good but the Brick & Mortar Sales are lacking, then the physical store will close or move to a different location, depriving the 2A violating property owners from income.

    If enough folks who are 2A supporters announce their intentions to the property owners and then the property owners see that stores are closing up in their locations, then maybe they will rethink their position. Till then, everyone who capitulates without any sound negotiating, is simply caving in to the Anti-Gun crowd.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    If you know they are not gun friendly then by all means carry concealed.

    Note that signage may not carry a penalty by law but being trespassed does and the way it stands they can refuse service to essentially anyone.

    I want to emphasize if you were found to be carrying you could be asked to leave and secure your firearm in your vehicle or trespassed for a period of time to forever regardless of intending to carry or not again or they just ignore it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Fine, then I would want a full refund on all my purchases made that day.
    What are you, 12 years old! Stomp Stomp Slam Slam Stomp Stomp !
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    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  11. #11
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Ah yes, the Mall.

    That's where you go when you find people walking 3-4 abreast at their own leisurly speed, not caring about anyone around them.

    Where at Christmas time there are so many kiosks and tables in the walk ways that it takes forever to get to the shops you want to.

    Where every car parked in the Parking Lot is at risk of being broken into or stolen.

    Where purses get snatched

    Where low-life @-h**** follow you to the car with the intent to rob the owner or steal the car. (of course people here aren't concerned, they're armed)


    You bet, a Mall is just where I want to go, especially at Christmas time. My shopping is almost done and the biggest trip I'll have to make is to the front door to get the package from the FEDEX/UPS man.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  12. #12
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    I prefer to OC, so if I go into a Mall with my wife or my family (I am rarely in a Mall by myself), and they choose to confront me to tell me that my personal protective device is not welcome, I make a point of informing them that I will comply but ask that they let management know that as long as I my every day carry protective device is not welcome, I will consider that my money is also not welcome there either.

    That is why you will no longer find me in the Tacoma Mall (Simon Properties), and yes I have told them I will no longer patronize their facilities -In a direct email at that.

    They have not replied, as they do not care, there are thousands of shoppers who either are not 2A supporters or will simply roll-over and become non-law-abiding citizens in that they know that the Mall does not want weapons on their property, and will violate the property rights of the Owners and CC anyway. That to me is hypocrisy!

    Enough of the retailers that have brick & mortar stores in the Mall also have an on-line presence and I can order from them on-line, thus not giving my business or my $$ to the brick & mortar store paying rent to the mall properties.

    I look at it this way, if the on-line sales are good but the Brick & Mortar Sales are lacking, then the physical store will close or move to a different location, depriving the 2A violating property owners from income.

    If enough folks who are 2A supporters announce their intentions to the property owners and then the property owners see that stores are closing up in their locations, then maybe they will rethink their position. Till then, everyone who capitulates without any sound negotiating, is simply caving in to the Anti-Gun crowd.
    Refer to amlevin's latest post as to most of the reasons I hate going to malls in the first place, but there are times when a specific set of circumstances makes it unavoidable (usually because the wife REALLY REALLY wants to go to the mall. She tolerates my foibles, I tolerate hers.) Carrying in the mall against their wishes is in NO WAY "non-law-abiding," I am breaking no law by doing so. It is at best disrespectful, same as I find their request to go into a dangerous place unarmed. It's not hypocritical, it's a practical solution to a real-world problem. You can't win every battle, especially when the "guns are bad" mentality is as ingrained as it is with "mall people." You'll sooner be able to OC your sidearm in to the Mayor of New York's office.

    SO if, for whatever reason, going into the mall is unavoidable, I can either go unarmed and leave myself and/or my wife defenseless in a place with a history of violence, or simply decline their REQUEST not to carry in a way that leaves their little bubble of happy-happy disconnected reality intact while maintaining the tools to protect myself & my family from the *actual* bad guys who have also ignored their silly little policy.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    ...

    They have not replied, as they do not care, there are thousands of shoppers who either are not 2A supporters or will simply roll-over and become non-law-abiding citizens in that they know that the Mall does not want weapons on their property, and will violate the property rights of the Owners and CC anyway. That to me is hypocrisy!

    ...
    If I carry at the mall against the wishes of the property owners or managers, exactly what law am I breaking? Bear in mind that I will want you to cite a specific law, not some vague "you are violating their property rights".

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot_Every_Night View Post
    Ok, so I am in Olympia and I don't go to the mall very much at all, and when I do, I never bring my gun inside. I went in there a couple weeks ago and there was a guy open carrying with his kid and wife, even though I have heard that is a no no. I heard it was private property and was told it wasn't welcome. So is it? or isn't it? I don't know who to call to ask, and if it isn't allowed, why isn't there a sign that says so? It seems everywhere I go that doesn't allow guns, won't put a sign up that says so. It seems as if they like confrontation.
    You can carry on any private property that is open to the general public in any legal manner, until you are asked to leave. Then you must leave, and protest later. Remember, also, that there are malls that are against carry, that have stores in them that allow carry. Also, signs do not carry the weight of the Law. Someone with the proper authority to represent the mall has to personally ask you to leave.

    My personal way to handle this...I only shop where OC is not questioned. If I am asked to leave, I leave...if I have any unpaid for item(s)..I just leave them right where they are...full shopping cart and all. I then explain to the management of that retailer that I will not be back, and why.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    What are you, 12 years old! Stomp Stomp Slam Slam Stomp Stomp !
    What would be so unreasonable about the demand for a refund?

    If I have been shopping in the mall and then I am told that my gun is not welcome and it is required to leave, then I want to return my purchases and get my money back.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    there are thousands of shoppers who either are not 2A supporters or will simply roll-over and become non-law-abiding citizens in that they know that the Mall does not want weapons on their property, and will violate the property rights of the Owners and CC anyway. That to me is hypocrisy!
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    ~~ snipped ~~ Carrying in the mall against their wishes is in NO WAY "non-law-abiding," I am breaking no law by doing so. It is at best disrespectful, same as I find their request to go into a dangerous place unarmed. It's not hypocritical, it's a practical solution to a real-world problem. ~~ snipped ~~
    Please read what I said again. I have emphasized some of it for clarity.

    Then maybe you should consider that in nearly all of our laws, intent is what separates a criminal act from an accidental one. If you are already aware (Know) that a restriction of firearms exists on a certain property, then by entering that property, you are knowingly violating the Owners wishes, and even without them having to tell you that it is not allowed, are making yourself an intentional trespasser.

    Based upon your statement, you do not believe that you are doing anything wrong or committing any crime if you violate a property owners rules while on his Property!

    I will turn this around on you and ask that you show me where there is no possible way that any property owner can have you arrested for bringing a firearm onto restricted property.

    Even if you can, it does not change that you would become a hypocrite should you attempt to feign ignorance when approached for carrying a firearm onto property where you know it is prohibited..

    Yes, the onus of proof that you knew in advance, will still fall on the Owner, however at that point you have already shown to yourself and possibly to others what your lack of integrity is, that you lack the respect for others rights that you expect they would grant to you.

    Since you asked that I povide something, I would direct you to many of Washington States Administrative Codes that would not give you the option, but would have you arrested for carrying concealed if caught on specific properties. That in itself implies that you are breaking laws. Admin Codes in and of themselves mean little, but most of the codes I refer to have RCW's behind them giving them their bite, as the State of Washington occupies and preempts all firearm regulations, then their own Administrative Codes restricting firearms do carry weight. Here is just one as an example. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...true#10-20-010

    Think about something else: If you have your property marked "No Firearms Allowed", then happen to observe someone you do not know carrying a concealed firearm onto your property, would you simply say, Oh well.. he is just trying to provide himself with a practical solution in a real world situation, or would you consider taking action that may cost him his life?
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Regular Member darkside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    What would be so unreasonable about the demand for a refund?

    If I have been shopping in the mall and then I am told that my gun is not welcome and it is required to leave, then I want to return my purchases and get my money back.
    Well, the demand for a refund in and of itself is not unreasonable, but i suspect that you would be told that you can get your refund just as soon as your weapon leaves the mall. Mall security does not have to let you go to any stores for any reason once you have been told to leave. And the mall itself does not have to give you a refund since you did not pay an admission fee. My suggestion would be to take your purchases, go home and have a cold beverage to soothe your nerves.

    Just my .02 cents.

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flopsweat View Post
    If I carry at the mall against the wishes of the property owners or managers, exactly what law am I breaking? Bear in mind that I will want you to cite a specific law, not some vague "you are violating their property rights".
    Read my last post to Metalhead47 and know that if you carry on property that you already know in advance is restricted by the Property Owner, if nothing else, you make your self a complete hypocrite for not respecting the same rights that you would demand they grant you without hesitation.

    Do you wish to argue that point?

    Would you also wish to argue that in our system of justice, that separates most acts from being accidental to being criminal is knowing in advance and intentionally violating whatever it is that you are violating?

    I have no posted signs on my property, but if someone I do not know enters my property without my express invitation, and I see a strange bulge that I suspect is a concealed weapon, Do I have to wait before I shoot? Absolutely Not!

    Keep that in mind as you violate a private property owners stated wishes.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-08-2012 at 05:19 PM.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Citation, please?

    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force When lawful.

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyR...stitution.aspx
    Article 1 - DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
    SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired,
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    I have no posted signs on my property, but if someone I do not know enters my property without my express invitation, and I see a strange bulge that I suspect is a concealed weapon, Do I have to wait before I shoot? Absolutely Not!
    There is a man in Onalaska where he shot and killed a man with his wife coming onto his property at night which had been burglarized in the days before and is doing time in prison for it, how does that scenario work out for you and no one else?

    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyR...stitution.aspx
    Article 1 - DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
    SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired,
    Keyword here is DEFENSE, this is a serous failure to understand Washington State Constitution and Laws.

    The only explanation I see that can apply here is that your OCDO login has been hacked and someone is posting ridiculous bull.
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-08-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    There is a man in Onalaska where he shot and killed a man with his wife coming onto his property at night which had been burglarized in the days before and is doing time in prison for it, how does that scenario work out for you and no one else?



    Keyword here is DEFENSE, this is a serous failure to understand Washington State Constitution and Laws.

    The only explanation I see that can apply here is that your OCDO login has been hacked and someone is posting ridiculous bull.
    And even the PA in that case said had he waited for them to get int his garage or physically into a vehicle of his, he would not be where he is today.

    My original statement and post in this thread, just for you and NavyLCDR to consider, is that If someone carries a weapon where they already know it is against the wishes of the property Owner, they are intentionally violating that Owners wishes. It matters not what their purpose was. As supporters of Freedom and Liberty, they have made themselves out as hypocrites at the very least, and depending on the property, maybe even criminals in that they have shown advance knowledge and complete intent to ignore the rules for their own gain.

    In the case I presented, I need only be able to articulate that I felt a real fear for my life, upon seeing one or more unknown individuals entering my property for god knows what ungodly mischief, and having a mysterious bulge giving me the impression that they are armed and up to no good.

    Which considering my frail physical condition would be very easy to do. Now, had they been the ones coming onto my property uninvited and even without prior knowledge of what I may or may not allow on my property, may lose more than their ability to defend themselves.

    Additional Thought here.
    The best defensive stance is a very strong Offense!
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-09-2012 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Additional thought
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  22. #22
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    In the case I presented, I need only be able to articulate that I felt a real fear for my life, upon seeing one or more unknown individuals entering my property for god knows what ungodly mischief, and having a mysterious bulge giving me the impression that they are armed and up to no good.

    Which considering my frail physical condition would be very easy to do. Now, had they been the ones coming onto my property uninvited and even without prior knowledge of what I may or may not allow on my property, may lose more than their ability to defend themselves.

    Additional Thought here.
    The best defensive stance is a very strong Offense!

    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    I have no posted signs on my property, but if someone I do not know enters my property without my express invitation, and I see a strange bulge that I suspect is a concealed weapon, Do I have to wait before I shoot? Absolutely Not!
    Keep that in mind as you violate a private property owners stated wishes.
    Articulating ones real fear for life or limb will be viewed in the context of reasonable force, not more then necessary, that a reasonable person knowing what you knew at the time would have done the same as you.
    From what you have described I strongly feel you will fail.

    Being frail, sickly does not give one a free pass to use force or deadly force for that matter and still must be considered reasonable and not more the necessary.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  23. #23
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Articulating ones real fear for life or limb will be viewed in the context of reasonable force, not more then necessary, that a reasonable person knowing what you knew at the time would have done the same as you.
    From what you have described I strongly feel you will fail.

    Being frail, sickly does not give one a free pass to use force or deadly force for that matter and still must be considered reasonable and not more the necessary.
    That just shows that you are assuming I cannot articulate.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  24. #24
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    Please read what I said again. I have emphasized some of it for clarity.

    Then maybe you should consider that in nearly all of our laws, intent is what separates a criminal act from an accidental one. If you are already aware (Know) that a restriction of firearms exists on a certain property, then by entering that property, you are knowingly violating the Owners wishes, and even without them having to tell you that it is not allowed, are making yourself an intentional trespasser.

    Based upon your statement, you do not believe that you are doing anything wrong or committing any crime if you violate a property owners rules while on his Property!

    I will turn this around on you and ask that you show me where there is no possible way that any property owner can have you arrested for bringing a firearm onto restricted property.

    Even if you can, it does not change that you would become a hypocrite should you attempt to feign ignorance when approached for carrying a firearm onto property where you know it is prohibited..

    Yes, the onus of proof that you knew in advance, will still fall on the Owner, however at that point you have already shown to yourself and possibly to others what your lack of integrity is, that you lack the respect for others rights that you expect they would grant to you.

    Since you asked that I povide something, I would direct you to many of Washington States Administrative Codes that would not give you the option, but would have you arrested for carrying concealed if caught on specific properties. That in itself implies that you are breaking laws. Admin Codes in and of themselves mean little, but most of the codes I refer to have RCW's behind them giving them their bite, as the State of Washington occupies and preempts all firearm regulations, then their own Administrative Codes restricting firearms do carry weight. Here is just one as an example. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...true#10-20-010

    Think about something else: If you have your property marked "No Firearms Allowed", then happen to observe someone you do not know carrying a concealed firearm onto your property, would you simply say, Oh well.. he is just trying to provide himself with a practical solution in a real world situation, or would you consider taking action that may cost him his life?
    First: let me say that to be a trespasser on any property that is open to the general public, you must do doing something that is, against the law if public property, or against the wishes of the property owner if private. If compitent authority for that property owner informs me personally (not internet chatter and not some sign that I may miss) that I cannot carry, and I do not leave, then I can be charged with trespass...otherwise I cannot.

    Yes, even if there is a sign..how do you, or anyone else know that I can read any language....that is why you must be requested to leave, personally. Is being illiterat a crime? Let's not make it one. Read the law on trespass, what does it state? BTW: Private property (your abode) and private property that is open to the general public is NOT the same thing, not even close.

    When you choose to open your property to the general public you are playing by a whole new set of rules that impact peoples rights...That is how the Americans with Disabilities Act comes into play, all the anti discrimination laws, most states even provide for carry in places of "public accomadation" If you want to know what places of public accomadation are, read the Civil Rights act or the disabilities act,,,it's in the definition section.

    As for WACs..WACs cover administrative rules...and as such must be backed up by an RCW that authorizes that WAC. So, lets look at the UW, and their WAC that states you cannot carry on UW property...Question #1: Can the BoR control carry by the general public on UW property? Not when the property is open to the general public. (say the Arboritum, or the sidewalks, lawns, even the museums and libraries?) no. The LAW (RCWs) regulates the general public on public property, The UW WACs regulate the students and university employees.

    Next lets look at what the LAW states in RCW 9.41.290 and .300. Is there anything in those two LAWs that states any state college or university can control any carry? Nope...so, not only is that particulat WAC not applicable to non-students and non-employees, it is not even legal...which someday, when it will be challenged in court, the university will loose, just like the universities did in Oregon and Colorado when the question of restricting carry on university property was finally brought before the courts.

    WACs are ok, but they MUST have law to back them up, and for carry on public property in WA that means they must have a specific exemption to RCW 9.41.290 as provided in RCW 9.41.300 or other applicable RCW. BTW: The RCW that gives the UW BoR it's authority, DOES NOT provide a firearms exemption so their WAC that restricts carry in no better that the Seattle rule to prohibit carry in their parks...they just do not have the authority, Notwithstanding that they have assumed that authority, WAC's are not LAW, they carry no penality except by the RCW that gives the authority for the WAC.

    WA Court decissions may provide that the university can restrict carry while on the job for some employees, but not for the general public...think public transit, The WA supreme court has stated that a transit employee can be restricted from carrying while on the job, but that the public cannot be restricted from legal carry on the same transit vehicle.

  25. #25
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Citation, please?

    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force When lawful.

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    You know that does not apply to property that is open to the general public...Right?

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