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Thread: USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

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    USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    11.13. Experimentation on Human Subjects for Intelligence Purposes. Air Force intelligence components do not engage in experimentation involving human subjects for intelligence purposes. Any exception would require approval by the Secretary or Under Secretary of the Air Force....

    ??????? do they don't they exceptions exist for a reason right?

    http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afi14-104.pdf
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-08-2012 at 03:27 AM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Re: USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    Is that a policy or a press release? As a policy, it says that as a matter of that policy, the Air Force does not experiment on people, forever an exception can be made by the secretary/under secretary.

    Also, note how it's only concerning Intel. What about weapons and medical experimentation?

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    The person responsible for a policy (or his vice) can make exceptions to it? Shocking.

    Are you saying that human experimentation is being done? If so, point it out. If not, pointless post.

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    Re: USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The person responsible for a policy (or his vice) can make exceptions to it? Shocking.

    Are you saying that human experimentation is being done? If so, point it out. If not, pointless post.
    You specifically agree to this when you enlist. It's in the paperwork.

    I can only point out one instance though.

    At the end of1997 or beginning of 1998 (can't remember) when I was still at DLI (Presidio of Monterey) they had us in formation and informed us we were going to receive their brand spanking new experimental anthrax shot.

    As I recall one captain refused and was court martialed. The rest of us received it.

    It happens, but it's nothing like what happened at Tuskegee. Shrug...

    Tap'n while driving...
    Last edited by Anonymouse; 12-08-2012 at 10:37 AM.

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    Exactly. The AFI is only stating reality. The SAF (and his vice) are the only ones with power to authorize human experimentation. I am sure there are protocols that they following before approving human trials.

    BTW, folks human experimentation happens all the time. It ain't alway Dr. Mengele stuff, as some would have you assume. It is usually legal, and almost always with the full knowledge and consent of the subjects. In the case of military members, as the above post indicates, they agree to allow themselves to be ordered to receive vaccinations. I strongly doubt that they are the first ones ever to receive it, but are usually among the first as they will be placed in the possible way of the diseases for which the vaccinations are a prophylaxis.

    Such cases are not so much experimentation as they are a genuine, but leading edge, attempt to maintain a viable military in hazardous circumstances.

    Get over it. If you don't volunteer to serve or you don't volunteer for a specific trial, no one can legally require your participation in human trials. On the off-chance that you do not believe this, I have lots of tinfoil to sell you. Warning: No one has proven that tinfoil is efficacious. If you use it, it will be on an experimental basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The person responsible for a policy (or his vice) can make exceptions to it? Shocking.

    Are you saying that human experimentation is being done? If so, point it out. If not, pointless post.
    I would say that the policy or regulation clearly indicates that experimentation is permissible ... not too much a stretch to say that it has occurred ... if you are looking for data showing it has been done then I think you ask for too much as you know I cannot get this data.

    I just found the policy saying that human experimentation is forbidden and then the next sentence gives the requirements to do it.

    And this is not some trivial exception since it deals with human EXPERIMENTATION and not a "do not park in the white zone" rule.

    I also found it humorous ... typical gov't double talk. Yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post
    it's in the paperwork.
    .
    rofl ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would say that the policy or regulation clearly indicates that experimentation is permissible ... not too much a stretch to say that it has occurred ... if you are looking for data showing it has been done then I think you ask for too much as you know I cannot get this data...
    Of course it is permissible. That is why they needed to address who has the power to authorize it.

    You probably are thinking that Dr. Mengele stuff. But, as I pointed out in another post, that is not necessarily what human experimentation is. Have you ever heard of drug trials? Human experimentation. After cosmetics have been tested on animals and cleared, they are tested on humans. Human experimentation. A new surgical technique being used for the first time? Human experimentation.

    So, how do we ensure that human experimentation is done responsibly and don't become Dr. Mengele stuff? An authority is designated by law to make the decision when and under what conditions it will be done, an authority to whom all proposals will be brought and who will follow a protocol to determine whether or not to allow the trials to proceed. In the USAF, that authority is the SAF. He created an AFI that says that he has not delegated that authority to anyone else save his vice.

    This thread is really becoming a waste of time. Someone clearly thinks human experimentation is something it almost never is, and, when it is, is already illegal.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Re: USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    Don't bother arguing with Eye95, he's a government apologist.

    As I have pointed out before, the quoted statement ONLY refers to human experimentation for Intel purposes. I'm guessing MKUltra would fall under that policy. But weapons and medical testing wouldn't.

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    Re: USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    rofl ....
    Shrug... it is. That's the problem with signing your rights away...

    What did I know? I was 17.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    On the off-chance that you do not believe this, I have lots of tinfoil to sell you. Warning: No one has proven that tinfoil is efficacious. If you use it, it will be on an experimental basis.
    I LOL'd

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would say that the policy or regulation clearly indicates that experimentation is permissible ... not too much a stretch to say that it has occurred ... if you are looking for data showing it has been done then I think you ask for too much as you know I cannot get this data.

    I just found the policy saying that human experimentation is forbidden and then the next sentence gives the requirements to do it.

    And this is not some trivial exception since it deals with human EXPERIMENTATION and not a "do not park in the white zone" rule.

    I also found it humorous ... typical gov't double talk. Yes?
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    i guess i missed the point of putting out an AF AFI? i would worry more about the universities doing human testing in the name of educational research w/o the oversight this AFI affords those subjects who might participate in the AF's testing program.

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    There is a rumor of gov experimentation of lab rats and tin foil hats~~seems tin foil hats cause increased rates of paranoia in lab rats...
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    USAF does not experiment on humans (oh wait - yes we do)

    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    i guess i missed the point of putting out an AF AFI? i would worry more about the universities doing human testing in the name of educational research w/o the oversight this AFI affords those subjects who might participate in the AF's testing program.

    wabbit
    There is plenty of oversight in university research, in fact, it's required and has a specific board or protocols that must be agreed upon ahead of time and reviewed.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    There is a rumor of gov experimentation of lab rats and tin foil hats~~seems tin foil hats cause increased rates of paranoia in lab rats...
    Maybe that paranoia is the sudden awareness they are part of an experiment they have no control over.......
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 12-09-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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