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Question, any help would be appreciated

BigDave

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I have my CPL. I keep my gun loaded wherever I take it. I do not carry it hot though, because it has no safety on it. If I am in my car driving, and my gun is right there, can my adult friend who is with me take it and use it if we end up in a situation where it needs to be used? Like if someone comes up to the car demanding I get out, or wants money. Last night, in the apartments right next to me, a 16 year old got shot in the stomach by a 29 year old homeless man, the teens were getting in their car about to leave when this homeless guy walked up to them demanding money and the car. The teen guys took the guy down, and one ended up shot, but he is going to be okay, thank god. What if that was me? Does my friend have to have a license to use the gun when it is a life or death situation, like someone threatening to hurt us if we don't give up money or a car? Or does it have to be me, the owner and licensed one? Thanks!! Been curious about this for a while.

Cite where she asked this?

You no good read SVG?

M&P from my 5 minute search is a DAO (double action only) and comes with a block to prevent accidental discharge if dropped so it is just as safe as a revolver of today with the cylinder full.
All this says is she is new,young and in need of training or guidance with firearms, or both.
 

-NEMO-

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I myself own a M&P. Carry it often during the water months. Winter months I tent to stick with my XD 40 Sub compact. Easier to conceal. Both don't have "manual" safety's for say. Haven't shot myself yet... Honestly, the gun is not going to go off unless you stick your finger inside the trigger guard or are not paying attention and allow some other foreign object in there. If you are practicing proper firearm precautions, you will be guarding the trigger being cognizant of what you allow in there.

I have never owned a hand gun with animal safety an probably never will. Know your weapon. Know how it operates. And know how to use it. Plain and simple. Become comfortable with it to the point that manual safety isn't an issue.

-NEMO-
 

sudden valley gunner

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Oh I don't know, your post! If you knew the laws then you would not have needed to ask if your friend could use your gun legally, or the idea a license gives you any knowledge or proficiency when it doesn't, if you knew about weapons and safe handling then again you would not have needed to ask if carrying one in the chamber was safe, it is if you follow the gun safety rules.

Honestly, you sound like a young kid wanting others to think you know it all but don't.



Cite where she asked this?

You no good read SVG?

I read just find. Where did she ask about it she made a statement on how she carries. Your rude reply to her wanting help was unnecessary.

I have my CPL. I keep my gun loaded wherever I take it. I do not carry it hot though, because it has no safety on it. If I am in my car driving, and my gun is right there, can my adult friend who is with me take it and use it if we end up in a situation where it needs to be used? Like if someone comes up to the car demanding I get out, or wants money. Last night, in the apartments right next to me, a 16 year old got shot in the stomach by a 29 year old homeless man, the teens were getting in their car about to leave when this homeless guy walked up to them demanding money and the car. The teen guys took the guy down, and one ended up shot, but he is going to be okay, thank god. What if that was me? Does my friend have to have a license to use the gun when it is a life or death situation, like someone threatening to hurt us if we don't give up money or a car? Or does it have to be me, the owner and licensed one? Thanks!! Been curious about this for a while.
 

BigDave

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I read just find. Where did she ask about it she made a statement on how she carries. Your rude reply to her wanting help was unnecessary.

I am not your Mommy or Daddy it is not my position to sugar coat it, I was not rude or nor was in unnecessary though it was something that needs to be said to those with less experience and knowledge so they can avoid many pitfalls ahead.

Not carrying one round in the chamber or as she described carrying hot, clearly demonstrates someone that is not trusting of their ability or confidence in their firearm they are carrying. The only way to gain ability and confidence is to learn, gain information, training, practice.

There is also those out there and I suspect she falls into this as well, new to the handling and carrying of firearms, claims proficiency and knowledge though lacking or with stories of my Uncle who fought in Vietnam taught me, or I Grandpa knows all there is to know about guns and he showed me, who has not heard these stories?
While friends and family are willing to step up to the plate and I'll teach you when they may well lack the teaching skills to effectively complete the task.
Firearms training is a great way to get professional instruction to shorten this learning time.

SVG you go right ahead and sugar coat it, and say your poor babies it's okay and when it comes down to it and in an incident they are ill prepared, then you can say great job and pat yourself on your back.

As I have said before you can take the information and do with it what you want, use it or not you are accountable for your actions.
 

sirpuma

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Hot, you need to watch this video. This is why you carry one in the chamber, ready to rock-n-roll. [video=youtube;syxrpLbaEuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY[/video]
 

EMNofSeattle

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CODA to Sirpuma

[video=youtube;bMbIC0RPBRs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMbIC0RPBRs[/video]

my grandfather has this same idea "well if I end up somewhere where I think i'll need a round i'll chamber it"

bad game plan, I.... well here since you already carry with an empty chamber, do this, when you load your gun, before you insert the mag, rack your slide, so you can have an empty chamber and a set trigger, and whenever you have a private moment check your set trigger to see if it's still set.

you'll soon realize the gun will not trigger itself and then be more comfortable carrying round-in.
 

Trigger Dr

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bad game plan, I.... well here since you already carry with an empty chamber, do this, when you load your gun, before you insert the mag, rack your slide, so you can have an empty chamber and a set trigger, and whenever you have a private moment check your set trigger to see if it's still set.

you'll soon realize the gun will not trigger itself and then be more comfortable carrying round-in.[/QUOTE]

THIS is a BAD GAME PLAN....Good way to get an ND
 

BigDave

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bad game plan, I.... well here since you already carry with an empty chamber, do this, when you load your gun, before you insert the mag, rack your slide, so you can have an empty chamber and a set trigger, and whenever you have a private moment check your set trigger to see if it's still set.

you'll soon realize the gun will not trigger itself and then be more comfortable carrying round-in.

THIS is a BAD GAME PLAN....Good way to get an ND

Has hell frozen over as I agree whole heartily, again! For some reason it is occurring with NavyLCDR more often?? From my understanding the M&P is a Double Action and there is NO NEED TO SET TRIGGER and is a stupid idea.
 
Last edited:

EMNofSeattle

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bad game plan, I.... well here since you already carry with an empty chamber, do this, when you load your gun, before you insert the mag, rack your slide, so you can have an empty chamber and a set trigger, and whenever you have a private moment check your set trigger to see if it's still set.

you'll soon realize the gun will not trigger itself and then be more comfortable carrying round-in.

THIS is a BAD GAME PLAN....Good way to get an ND[/QUOTE]

No, it's not. not anymore so then carrying a gun on a full chamber. NDs come from putting the booger hook on the bang switch. not carrying on an empty chamber. this is a visual example of why carrying on a loaded chamber is not dangerous, becuase the trigger doesn't go off on its own. she's already carrying with empty chamber anyway. follow the four rules and there won't be NDs, having a full or empty chamber is not a factor in that.
And isn't the M&P a single action striker just like the glock trigger anyway?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Has hell frozen over as I agree whole heartily, again! For some reason it is occurring with NavyLCDR more often?? From my understanding the M&P is a Double Action and there is NO NEED TO SET TRIGGER and is a stupid idea.

It's unorthodox, but not "stupid" as long as one has a grasp on basic safety rules.
I've never owned an M&P but I've seen them fired, there's an audible trigger re-set. BANG!!...*click* BANG!...*click* just like on the glock I don't think it's a double action.

this is like the people on youtube who go around saying on people's videos "you are being safe, you pointed the gun towards the camera" or "you didn't safety check it on film" Gun safety is important, but not rocket science. once more, follow the four rules, no ND.

it's hardly less safe then more accepted practices like having a holster mounted to your car dash and swtiching the gun every single time you get in and out of the car.
read what I said, I didn't say PULL the trigger, I set "check the trigger" big difference.
 

EMNofSeattle

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All of this from a college student that is unable to carry on a daily basis.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_M&P

unable to carry outside the house, since my classes are on the internet I'm armed at home nearly all the time, only when I have to go over to the gas station for pork rinds and coca-cola do I have to disarm.

I thought there was patent infringement suit filed by glock about the M&P copying the trigger, maybe that was the springfield that happened with. hardly a knock against me, I've never owned or fired an M&P, so I don't mind being wrong about trigger. now I know.
in which case I advocated she do what she already has been doing. which means there's no elevated risk of ND. I've never had an ND happen to me, ever. so In think my track record on that is pretty good. and I carry 90% of the day because I remain at home. and I do routinely carry in Idaho and Montana when I go there twice a year, and while hiking in state forests under the .060 exception. my comfort level with firearms is very high, and I've never had a problem carrying one....

nor would I advocate someone do something dangerous as some have implied.
 

Trigger Dr

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EMN,
Your comfort level may be higher than it should be. Maybe you did not post what you thought you posted. Checking the trigger in ANY fire arm that has a magazine loaded or unloaded, without first removing it and clearing the chamber is just what I said .....A BAD GAME PLAN.
 

EMNofSeattle

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EMN,
Your comfort level may be higher than it should be. Maybe you did not post what you thought you posted. Checking the trigger in ANY fire arm that has a magazine loaded or unloaded, without first removing it and clearing the chamber is just what I said .....A BAD GAME PLAN.

what are you calling a "check"? I'm intending to say, when in private, just visually observe the trigger, without touching, manipulating, mental telekinisising, or anything other then visually looking at the trigger.

I've heard of this done before for people who think that it's not safe to carry round in chamber, carry empty with a set trigger (in a gun that you can visually tell if the trigger is set such as a glock) and when you get home, pull the gun from the holster and see that the trigger is still set, hasn't been depressed. this is purely to illustrate that guns don't generally go off without a booger hook pulling the bang switch.

if check means to you "depress the trigger" then you're right, by all means DO NOT do that. but all i meant was to visually look at the trigger
 

Jeff Hayes

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if check means to you "depress the trigger" then you're right, by all means DO NOT do that. but all i meant was to visually look at the trigger

Just curious but what will visually looking at the trigger tell you?

In the main time you are handling a loaded firearm, I have to agree with Trigger Dr and Big Dave this is an ND looking to happen.

I chamber check and mag check what ever firearm I am carrying in the morning when I put it on and in the evening when I take it off. I also check the spare mags I am carrying but I have never checked the trigger by looking at it.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I have my CPL. I keep my gun loaded wherever I take it. I do not carry it hot though, because it has no safety on it. If I am in my car driving, and my gun is right there, can my adult friend who is with me take it and use it if we end up in a situation where it needs to be used? Like if someone comes up to the car demanding I get out, or wants money. Last night, in the apartments right next to me, a 16 year old got shot in the stomach by a 29 year old homeless man, the teens were getting in their car about to leave when this homeless guy walked up to them demanding money and the car. The teen guys took the guy down, and one ended up shot, but he is going to be okay, thank god. What if that was me? Does my friend have to have a license to use the gun when it is a life or death situation, like someone threatening to hurt us if we don't give up money or a car? Or does it have to be me, the owner and licensed one? Thanks!! Been curious about this for a while.

My personal feelings Samantha, is carry "hot", things happen fast.

Second this is not legal advise, but I don't care what the law says at that moment, if your friend can save your life and doesn't he's no friend. I wouldn't care if I was even a prohibited person, I would try to help.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Just curious but what will visually looking at the trigger tell you?

In the main time you are handling a loaded firearm, I have to agree with Trigger Dr and Big Dave this is an ND looking to happen.

I chamber check and mag check what ever firearm I am carrying in the morning when I put it on and in the evening when I take it off. I also check the spare mags I am carrying but I have never checked the trigger by looking at it.

Ok I'm not going to argue this anymore after this post,

GLOCK_29_10mm.jpg


This glock has a set trigger, if the trigger is pulled and there is no round in the chamber the trigger will lock into another position.
all this is, is part of an exercise that a handful of classes have done for people who are afraid of carrying a gun round in chamber becuase they feel it's not safe. or that the gun may fire more easily of its chambered.

all you do, is carry the gun non chambered with the trigger set, all day, and then when you get home and remove the gun, just look at it, the trigger will still be set, hence its an observation that fear of a chambered round is unreasonable. nothing else to it. that's it. all it is.

if one follows the four safety rules there is no additional risk of ND whatsoever, it's obvious that this has gone way too far.

with that final explanation I'm not going to further argue this, there is no reason to keep arguing
 

EMNofSeattle

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My personal feelings Samantha, is carry "hot", things happen fast.

Second this is not legal advise, but I don't care what the law says at that moment, if your friend can save your life and doesn't he's no friend. I wouldn't care if I was even a prohibited person, I would try to help.

I actually agree with SVG on something...

with this caveat, if the "friend" is one of my liberal friends who's never touched a gun and doesn't know how to kill a bad guy without ventilating every wall within 180 degrees of the muzzle, I'd much rather they not help in that case.... if they have the skill and confidence, yes they should help, but I won't fault someone who doesn't because they don't possess the nessecary skills to help in that case.

if i choke at a party, I don't want a friend who knows nothing about medicine or human antanomy attempting a tracheotomy with an oyster knife.... same deal with guns...
 

BigDave

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Second this is not legal advise, but I don't care what the law says at that moment, if your friend can save your life and doesn't he's no friend. I wouldn't care if I was even a prohibited person, I would try to help.

I actually agree with SVG on something...

with this caveat, if the "friend" is one of my liberal friends who's never touched a gun and doesn't know how to kill a bad guy without ventilating every wall within 180 degrees of the muzzle, I'd much rather they not help in that case.... if they have the skill and confidence, yes they should help, but I won't fault someone who doesn't because they don't possess the nessecary skills to help in that case.

if i choke at a party, I don't want a friend who knows nothing about medicine or human antanomy attempting a tracheotomy with an oyster knife.... same deal with guns...

You mean you did not learn that there is a Necessity—Defense in Washington while carrying in your room at home? :eek:
SVG you didn't know about this defense? :eek:

If the person riding with her had lost their right to posses or own a weapon, one may violate a law to avoid a greater harm where deadly force is authorized. Though if she was capable in using the firearm then he would or could be in a gray area.


State of Washington Practice Series TM
Database Updated November 2011

Washington Pattern Jury Instructions--Criminal
2008 Edition Prepared by the Washington Supreme Court Committee On Jury Instructions, Hon. Sharon S. Armstrong, Co-Chair, Hon. William L. Downing, Co-Chair

Part IV. Defenses
WPIC CHAPTER 18. Miscellaneous Defenses

WPIC 18.02 Necessity—Defense

Necessity is a defense to a charge of __________ if
(1) the defendant reasonably believed the commission of the crime was necessary to avoid or minimize a harm; and
(2) the harm sought to be avoided was greater than the harm resulting from a violation of the law; and
(3) the threatened harm was not brought about by the defendant; and
(4) no reasonable legal alternative existed.
The defendant has the burden of proving this defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Preponderance of the evidence means that you must be persuaded, considering all the evidence in the case, that it is more probably true than not true. If you find that the defendant has established this defense, it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty [as to this charge].


NOTE ON USE

Use in every case in which the common law defense of necessity is asserted. Do not use when a statute, or case law, provides exceptions or defenses dealing with the specific situation involved. See the Comment below.
Use WPIC 19.17, Bail Jumping—Unforeseen Circumstances—Defense, and WPIC 19.16, Escape—First and Second Degree—Unforeseen Circumstances—Defense, when the offense charged is bail jumping or escape.
Use WPIC 52.10, Marijuana—Qualifying Patient—Defense, or WPIC 52.11, Marijuana—Designated Provider—Defense, when the offense charged is possession, delivery, or manufacturing of marijuana.
Use WPIC 94.10, Attempting to Elude a Police Vehicle—Reasonable Belief that the Pursuer is Not a Police Officer—Defense, when the offense charged is eluding and the defendant is claiming that the identity of the driver of the pursuing vehicle was unknown to him or her.
For certain medical necessity cases, paragraph (4) may need to be revised to add the phrase “equally effective.” See discussion in the Comment below.

COMMENT

Limited applicability—Common law defense. The instruction sets forth the common law defense of necessity, as recognized in State v. Diana, 24 Wn.App. 908, 604 P.2d 1312 (1979). Because the common law defense must yield to a statutory defense for a particular crime, see discussion below, the instruction has limited applicability.
Instruction does not apply to crimes that have a statutory necessity defense. Statutory defenses on necessity supersede the common law defense. See State v. Diana, 24 Wn.App. at 913–14 (quoting Section 3.02(1)(b) of the Model Penal Code). Accordingly, before giving WPIC 18.02, the court should determine that (1) neither the criminal code nor other laws defining the offense provide exceptions or defenses dealing with the specific situation involved, and (2) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed does not otherwise appear. State v. Diana, 24 Wn.App. at 914.

Several statutes supersede the common law defense of necessity for particular crimes, including:
• Bail jumping: RCW 9A.76.170(2);
• Escape, first and second degree: RCW 9A.76.110(2) and 9A.76.120(2);
• Eluding: RCW 46.61.024(2)(a);
• Schedule I drugs: see State v. Williams, 93 Wn.App. 340, 344–47, 968 P.2d 26 (1998) (statutes classifying Schedule I drugs preclude application of necessity defense); State v. Butler, 126 Wn.App. 741, 746–47, 109 P.3d 493 (2005) (same holding).
• Medical marijuana, qualifying patient defense: RCW 69.51A.040(3); State v. Butler, 126 Wn.App. at 748–50 (the Medical Use of Marijuana Act affirmative defense superseded the common law medical necessity defense);
• Medical marijuana, designated provider defense: RCW 69.51A.040(3).

Practitioners should consult the applicable statutes, including the most recent legislative enactments for any new defenses, before using WPIC 18.02.
Instruction does not apply to defending property from wildlife damage. When the defendant kills or injures wildlife in order to protect property, the jury should be instructed with instructions based on State v. Burk, 114 Wash. 370, 195 P. 16 (1921), rather than with the pattern instruction on necessity. See State v. Vander Houwen, 163 Wn.2d 25, 177 P.3d 93 (2008) (holding that the constitutional right to protect property requires the State to bear the burden of proof).
Availability of common law defense. The common law defense of necessity was recognized in State v. Diana, supra. In that case the Court of Appeals held that the trial court should have taken additional evidence to determine whether the defendant's possession of marijuana was justified by medical necessity. The Court of Appeals noted that the defense is available “when the physical forces of nature or the pressure of circumstances cause the accused to take unlawful action to avoid a harm which social policy deems greater than the harm resulting from the violation of the law.” State v. Diana, 24 Wn.App. at 913. “The defense is not applicable where the compelling circumstances have been brought about by the accused or where a legal alternative is available to the accused.” State v. Diana, 24 Wn.App. at 913–14. The Diana court's analytical framework remains good law, although the opinion's specific holding as to applying the common law's medical necessity defense to the possession of Schedule I drugs has been superseded by statute. See State v. Williams, 93 Wn.App. at 344–47 (holding that the Legislature's designation of Schedule I drugs as having no accepted medical use renders unavailable the medical necessity defense).

Burden of proof. “[T]he defendant must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that (1) he or she reasonably believed the commission of the crime was necessary to avoid or minimize a harm, (2) the harm sought to be avoided was greater than the harm resulting from a violation of the law, and (3) no legal alternative existed.” State v. Gallegos, 73 Wn.App. 644, 651, 871 P.2d 621 (1994); State v. Bailey, 77 Wn.App. 732, 893 P.2d 681 (1995).
“Reasonable legal alternative.” The instruction's paragraph (4) uses the term “reasonable legal alternative.” The reasonableness requirement is based on State v. Jeffrey, 77 Wn.App. 222, 224–26, 889 P.2d 956 (1995); see also State v. Parker, 127 Wn.App. 352, 354–55, 110 P.3d 1152 (2005) (citing Jeffrey with approval).
“Equally effective.” For medical necessity cases, the term “equally effective” may need to be added to the instruction's paragraph (4). See State v. Pittman, 88 Wn.App. 188, 943 P.2d 713 (1997) (in cases for which a defense of medical necessity is still available, the defendant will be required to show that there is no equally effective legal drug).
Comparison with defense of duress. Where the pressure upon the defendant comes from another human being, instead of from the physical forces of nature, the jury should be instructed on the defense of duress rather than the defense of necessity. State v. Turner, 42 Wn.App. 242, 711 P.2d 353 (1985).
[Current as of July 2008.]

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