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Thread: UnOfficial SB 59 Debate Thread

  1. #1
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    UnOfficial SB 59 Debate Thread

    Shadow Bear Wrote...

    This thread is for civil debate on the PROS & CONS of SB59.

    Any personal attacks, mention of other organizations, spam for other web sites will be immediately deleted.

    Indicate whether you are pro or con, and state your position.

    Make sure you quote any post you are responding to.

    Make sure you use cites to back up your position, when available.

    I want a clean fight, gentlemen. Now, go to your corners, or go on your way.

    I wrote...

    Cons; It Bans Open Carry (Really Big Con), It Creates precedence that Govt. can regulate Open Carry, If Pistol is exposed it leaves an Argument for Brandishing, It Bans Open Carry (Repeat), It Makes CPL harder/more expensive to get, and It makes more gun Regulation.

    Pro's; Instructors make more money, Govt. makes more money, Ammo Company's make more Money, Instructors have to register (Ironic), and Streamlines CPL's.

    I know what your gonna say, pull the repeated Con from the list & there will be just as many cons as pros and that makes it a 50/50 compromise, which reflects the Poll. I say that the mere fact it is Anti Open Carry is the reason all gun groups should kill this Bill. It goes against everything that is 2nd Amendment. I mean if there were no CPL's handed out anywhere, how would we carry? It's a no Brain-er. Last, the fact we are torn 50/50 is another reason to kill the Bill.
    Protect Open Carry at all Cost. When OC is gone only privileged people will be able to CC.

    I see a response of exactly what he asked.

    As far as repeating the same argument this is the first time I responded on OCDO but, I can say the same for the other side, except when you disagree with some of us very few on the right side we don't Lock your thread, but when we disagree with your side you Lock our thread, or close us out yours as soon as you see us post on the topic. It clearly shows you have something to hide!.. Besides I don't care that MOC made the Decision, I'm saying it makes no sense and they Should retract their Position regardless if the Bill passes or Fails. We're an Open Carry group for Christ sake.

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    I'm for this bill. Where is the "beat a dead horse" gif when you need it?!

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    As written the bill sends up some red flags. That said it can and should be amended. I am neutral at this point. I do know that Moc has always worked hard for the rights of all who carry guns in MI. I see no reason why they would suddenly change that record. Let's all relax and see what makes it to the final draft and then form our opinions on that data.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-08-2012 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Typo
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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    So whats that have to do with the fact a person starts a thread asking for a response, and when that response is full filled by the letter, but doesn't coincide with the that persons belief it gets closed?

    If people are tired of hearing disagreement about this subject, then stop making multiple Threads on Multiple Sites, or stipulate that only one response per member is acceptable.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I am in favor of this bill. I believe it puts us in a better position than we are in today. And I'd rather be able to CC in some of these "sensitive" places than OC but that's just me. I do see a problem in people's arguments though.

    Yes the bill allows for OC in PFZ with written permission. People seem to think that if the place would allow you to OC not they'll be willing to sign off on letting you OC there. I'm going to tell you that is not so easy. Sure there will be places that will sign off on it but when it comes to getting an owner of a place to actually sign a legal document allowing you to OC in their establishment I believe it will be much harder. This same business if they didn't have to sign anything and you simply come in OCing very well may do nothing.

    Other than that though I think this bill is great because it will allow people to obtain their CPLs in a timely fashion and allow more people to carry in more places. And as someone who works in PFZs (hockey referee) I'm thrilled to be able to CC into rinks because I would not be willing to OC into them. I'm sure there are more things I can bring up but for right now this is my stance.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Can you cite this from somewhere???
    This has been posted for you multiple times in some of the locked threads.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...-SEBS-0059.htm

    (10) AN INDIVIDUAL LICENSED UNDER THIS ACT TO CARRY A

    CONCEALED PISTOL, OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE UNDER SECTION

    12A(1)(H), SHALL NOT INTENTIONALLY DISPLAY OR OPENLY CARRY A PISTOL

    ON THE PREMISES LISTED IN SUBSECTION (1)(A) TO (H) UNLESS THE

    INDIVIDUAL OWNS THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1) OR IS

    EMPLOYED OR CONTRACTED BY THE OWNER OR OTHER PERSON WITH CONTROL

    OVER THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1), IF THE POSSESSION OF

    THE FIREARM IS TO PROVIDE SECURITY SERVICES FOR THE PREMISES OR IS

    OTHERWISE IN THE SCOPE OF THE INDIVIDUAL'S OFFICIAL DUTIES, OR THE

    INDIVIDUAL IS ACTING WITH THE EXPRESS WRITTEN CONSENT OF THE OWNER

    OF THE PREMISES OR AN AGENT OF THE OWNER OF THE PREMISES.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    This has been posted for you multiple times in some of the locked threads.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...-SEBS-0059.htm
    He said in his post on this very thread that its legal. Idk why he asked to see the law.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrossPistols View Post
    Shadow Bear Wrote...

    This thread is for civil debate on the PROS & CONS of SB59.

    Any personal attacks, mention of other organizations, spam for other web sites will be immediately deleted.

    Indicate whether you are pro or con, and state your position.

    Make sure you quote any post you are responding to.

    Make sure you use cites to back up your position, when available.

    I want a clean fight, gentlemen. Now, go to your corners, or go on your way.

    I wrote...

    Cons; It Bans Open Carry (Really Big Con) Only in PFZ and you can still with premission , It Creates precedence that Govt. can regulate Open Carry, If Pistol is exposed it leaves an Argument for Brandishing No. , It Bans Open Carry (Repeat) Again no , It Makes CPL harder/more expensive to get, and It makes more gun Regulation. It makes getting a CPL EASIER, by eliminating gun boards, giving a 45day time max to issue, and teeth to sue them if they dont issue for invalid reasons. How does that make it harder to get a CPL.

    Pro's; Instructors make more money, Govt. makes more money, Ammo Company's make more Money, Instructors have to register (Ironic), and Streamlines CPL's.

    I know what your gonna say, pull the repeated Con from the list & there will be just as many cons as pros and that makes it a 50/50 compromise, which reflects the Poll. I say that the mere fact it is Anti Open Carry is the reason all gun groups should kill this Bill. It goes against everything that is 2nd Amendment. I mean if there were no CPL's handed out anywhere, how would we carry? It's a no Brain-er. Last, the fact we are torn 50/50 is another reason to kill the Bill.
    Protect Open Carry at all Cost. When OC is gone only privileged people will be able to CC. prohibiting OC'ing in a PFZ is deffinetly not losing a right, you needed the privilege slip to be able to do it in the first place.

    I see a response of exactly what he asked.

    As far as repeating the same argument this is the first time I responded on OCDO but, I can say the same for the other side, except when you disagree with some of us very few on the right side we don't Lock your thread, but when we disagree with your side you Lock our thread, or close us out yours as soon as you see us post on the topic. It clearly shows you have something to hide!.. Besides I don't care that MOC made the Decision, I'm saying it makes no sense and they Should retract their Position regardless if the Bill passes or Fails. We're an Open Carry group for Christ sake.
    We are a gun rights organization, who's MAIN (not "only") focus is Open Carry. You don't get legislation passed with a my way or the high-way, no compromise additude. And we also need support from other gun orgs and firearm ownwers to pass legislation in the future and can't go burning bridges.

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I'm for this bill. Where is the "beat a dead horse" gif when you need it?!
    How is this?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    If one of the photoshop wizards here can change the hair color to red and make the guy about 2 feet shorter it will look just like mike (seriously). Mike has always been a character. Never will forget the "great oc bicycle ride" he micro managed.


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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    locking threads and leave them as stickies? priceless!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    locking threads and leave them as stickies? priceless!
    There can be value in doing that - indeed John Pierce has locked threads and intentionally left the sticky active. Simply put, it allows the thread to be read, but w/o further discussion along the lines that made it unacceptable. The obvious benefit/purpose in the sticky is to keep the item in the forefront. I see no conflict.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There can be value in doing that - indeed John Pierce has locked threads and intentionally left the sticky active. Simply put, it allows the thread to be read, but w/o further discussion along the lines that made it unacceptable. The obvious benefit/purpose in the sticky is to keep the item in the forefront. I see no conflict.
    Nails on a chalkboard.

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    Mastiff's food for thought !

    Lets ALL go out and get permission slips, written permission ***to open carry*** from Bars, Church's, Hospitals, etc.
    Let's test this SB59 bill in reverse.


    Mastiff Say's and I will ask ( have any of you EVER asked for WRITTEN permission) & been given it ? HUMM !

    I have never in my 5yrs of open carry/concealed carry asked or been given PERMISSION

    I believe this bill, paying for permission, then having to get written permission, to OC in PFZ is bs, God knows we have some screwed up laws in Michigan but do we really want more ?

    Also if you get the enhansed cpl and carry in pfz & your weapon becomes exposed, without that WRITTEN PERMISSION SLIP, would you violation, & get fined etc...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    ( have any of you EVER asked for WRITTEN permission) & been given it ? HUMM !
    Restaurants with liquor licenses have posted written permission for OCers without a CPL to attend dinners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    I have never in my 5yrs of open carry/concealed carry asked or been given PERMISSION
    I've asked and been given permission to conceal at church.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    Lets ALL go out and get permission slips, written permission ***to open carry*** from Bars, Church's, Hospitals, etc.
    Let's test this SB59 bill in reverse.


    Mastiff Say's and I will ask ( have any of you EVER asked for WRITTEN permission) & been given it ? HUMM !

    I have never in my 5yrs of open carry/concealed carry asked or been given PERMISSION

    I believe this bill, paying for permission, then having to get written permission, to OC in PFZ is bs, God knows we have some screwed up laws in Michigan but do we really want more ?

    Also if you get the enhansed cpl and carry in pfz & your weapon becomes exposed, without that WRITTEN PERMISSION SLIP, would you violation, & get fined etc...?
    I have, we have done OC seminars in American Legions (Bar) and got permission in writing, so non CPL holders could carry at the seminar. I think others have too, a Bowling event comes to mind. The fact is if an OCer has a favorite bar or other place he frequents and knows the manager or owner he probably could get written permission.

    I have this as a word doc with MOC letterhead. This could be a templete with the various statutes changed at the botton.

    Permission to possess firearms
    On/in these premises
    As the legal agent/owner of this business I grant permission under Michigan statute 750.234d* to the invited guests of __________________________ to possess firearms in/on theses premises as allowed by Michigan and Federal law. This permission is granted for the entire day entered here: _______________.


    This agreement can be rescinded or extended at any time by the owner/agent for any lawful reason.







    ____________________________ Date_______________
    Owner/Agent


    ____________________________ Date________________
    Permitted Agent









    *(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    Last edited by Venator; 12-09-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    While it is true that under SB59 folks could OC with permission of the property owner/owner's representative...

    And folks have put for the argument that any property that would not give permission would be the same property that would boot an OCer out anyway...

    I wonder.........

    Of all the properties that didn't boot out OC'ers in the past because "permission" was as equally as unspoken as "no permission" was.. I wonder how many will be willing to actually accept responsibility for giving spoken/written permission that can be submitted in a court of law?

    I personally see a flaw in the argument that OC'ers can still OC with permission being used as a positive for the bill... and that flaw is the assumption that places that used to not say anything will now not only say something but will actually give permission.

    Frankly I suspect many places that just didn't say anything in the past will NOT give permission to OC when asked but will simply say that there is an "enhanced" concealed carry permit available and if folks want to carry there they can do it concealed so there is no need to OC.

    In my opinion... the portion of the bill that mentions OC in a PFZ with permission of the property owner is nothing more than an attempt to provide a red herring to take attention away from the fact that the simple act of open carry has specifically been made illegal. And, unless I am mistaken, this would be the first time in Michigan there would be a law that specifically makes open carry itself illegal.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 12-09-2012 at 10:57 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Restaurants with liquor licenses have posted written permission for OCers without a CPL to attend dinners.
    In fact, Back on November 14, 2010. We had a gathering in West Branch at G's Pizzeria. Which sells liquor, and I got permission from the owner in writing! For non cpl holders to attend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    unless I am mistaken, this would be the first time in Michigan there would be a law that specifically makes open carry itself illegal.
    750.234d makes open carry illegal in multiple places. It only becomes legal if you get the states "permission slip"(CPL). Just sayin'.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    750.234d makes open carry illegal in multiple places. It only becomes legal if you get the states "permission slip"(CPL). Just sayin'.
    Where in 750.234d does it specifically mention "openly carry" like SB59 does?

    After all... for a very long time folks stood on the premise that open carry was legal because there are not any laws that make open carry illegal. However... SB59 has language in it that specifically makes "openly carry" illegal. While SB59 only applies to "openly carry" in PFZ's I believe having a law that specifically mentions open carry sets the precedent of specifically making the act of open carry itself illegal... a precedent that can be used in the future to expand where "openly carry" can be made illegal.

    Folks could say I am parsing words but the truth is I am concerned that specific words have specific meanings.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 12-09-2012 at 12:42 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Where in 750.234d does it specifically mention "openly carry" like SB59 does?

    After all... for a very long time folks stood on the premise that open carry was legal because there are not any laws that make open carry illegal. However... SB59 has language in it that specifically makes "openly carry" illegal. While SB59 only applies to "openly carry" in PFZ's I believe having a law that specifically mentions open carry sets the precedent of specifically making the act of open carry itself illegal... a precedent that can be used in the future to expand where "openly carry" can be made illegal.

    Folks could say I am parsing words but the truth is I am concerned that specific words have specific meanings.
    No, 750.234d does not mention either open or concealed carry (exception in section 2 does mention having a license to carry concealed). It only says that you cannot possess a firearm in specific places unless you have a CPL or fit into one of the other exceptions in section 2.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 12-09-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Where in 750.234d does it specifically mention "openly carry" . Folks could say I am parsing words but the truth is I am concerned that specific words have specific meanings.
    Dude, parsing words? You're being purposely obtuse. If you can't posses a firearm, you know damn well you can't open carry it. Don't become Mike Stilly, you are waaaay smarter than that.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Example were asked for where written permission was given and examples were presented. Next question.

    I can also give example were I was asked to leave for OC. Next question.

    The fact remains that on private property you ALWAYS needed permission to carry OC or CC.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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