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Thread: CADL Prepares for War...what will you do?

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    CADL Prepares for War...what will you do?

    Thank you all very much for reaching out to your various library boards and getting back to us with your interest in contributing to and joining the "friend of the court" brief to encourage the Michigan Supreme Court to hear Capital Area District Library's forthcoming appeal. We have recieved some great feedback and wanted to answer a few questions that have been raised by multiple folks.

    The first series of questions that a few people have asked is whether we know exactly how much the brief will cost, how much each library will need to contribute, and whether each library will be contributing an equal amount. As we've indicated to each of you, we understand how tight library budgets across the state are, and that is why we will be capping the fees for this engagement at $12,500. At this point, we do not know how many libraries in total will be joining this effort, and thus we cannot provide a final cost figure per library, However, as described below, we are not going to ask any library to contribute more than $1,500. With your help, we continue to reach out to and have had productive discussions with additional libraries and library cooperatives, and are hopeful that even more district libraries will agree to be part of this project, which would decrease the cost for each individual library. Certainly if you have personal connections with other district library directors or boards and would be kind enough to make an introduction to them for us, we would be happy to speak with them.

    Given how many district libraries we have spoken with so far, we would ask that you receive authorization from your board to contribute up to $1,500 for this project. We are hopeful that even if your libraries authorize an expenditure of that amount, we will have enough support from enough libraries that it will not be necessary to use that entire allocation. Now, we understand that not all libraries will be able to contribute this amount, and that the libraries we've spoken with vary in terms of size, finances, and overall resources. But we do ask that you let us know what amount your library is able to contribute. When and if we are able to confirm that there is sufficient financial support for our effort, we will let everyone know and will begin our work.

    The second question we have recieved is whether each library would need to have their name associated with the brief, or whether a library can support the brief through a contribution without attaching its name to the brief. The answer is that a library can make a contribution privately, without its name appearing on the brief.

    We have spoken recently with former Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court Clifford Taylor, our partner, and he is eager to begin work on this project if we are able to move forward.

    We again appreciate your support and if you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to let us know.

    -Scott


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    Subject: Friend of the Court Brief - CADL Appeal
    Richard, Kay, Vickey, Paul, Pat, Bill, Kathleen, and David -

    Thank you all for taking the time to speak with my colleague Matthew Leitman and myself over the past few days regarding the "guns in library" Michigan Court of Appeals decision. We appreciate Doug and Mary's help in reaching out to you, and we're glad to see that there is a consensus that working together to help convince the Michigan Supreme Court to consider an appeal in the Capital Area District Library case is in the interest of your library and your patrons.

    As we discussed, the Capital Area District Library is likely to soon ask the Michigan Supreme Court to hear its appeal of the Court of Appeals' decision. And quite unlike the Michigan Court of Appeals, the Michigan Supreme Court has complete discretion over what cases it hears. So convincing the Michigan Supreme Court to consider this case is the immediate hurdle facing the CADL. It is at this stage where we believe that a consortium of district libraries could be of valuable help to the CADL through filing a "friend of the court" brief with the Michigan Supreme Court.

    We were glad to hear when speaking with you that you believed this was an important and concerning issue worthy of your library's resources, and we would be happy to draft and file such a "friend of the court" brief on the consortium's behalf urging the Michigan Supreme Court to use its limited resources to hear the CADL's appeal. We feel that any brief we file would have added credibility and force with the Justices considering it because the former Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, Clifford Taylor, would be part of our team drafting and submitting the brief on the libraries' behalf.

    What we would ask now is that you speak with your respective Boards and let us know to what extent your libraries would be willing to help fund this project. We understand the reality of library budgets (as a member of a library board myself, I know this first hand) which is why we've agreed to cap and reduce our fees for this important engagement and why we're reaching out to as many district libraries as possible from across the state. To that end, if you know of additional district libraries that you believe would be interested in helping fund this project, and wouldn't mind making an introduction for Matt or myself, we would be happy to speak with them so that the brief can have more force and help defray the costs for each individual library.

    As for as timing of this brief, currently the CADL has a "motion for rehearing" pending with the Michigan Court of Appeals, asking it to reconsider its decision. That motion could be denied at any time, and the clock starts ticking on us to quickly draft and file our "friend of the court" brief as soon as the Court of Appeals hands down that ruling. If you could attempt to get back to us next week, we would greatly appreciate it. If the Michigan Court of Appeals rules on the CADL's motion in the meantime, we will certainly let you know. In addition, if you and/or your board members have any questions about this process, please do not hesitate to let us know.

    Thanks again for your time and we look forward to hearing back from you on your respective Boards' ability and interest in helping to fund this project.

    -Scott

  2. #2
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    "we understand how tight library budgets across the state are, and that is why we will be capping the fees for this engagement at $12,500. "

    I wonder how many books this could by instead of trying to further their own opinion on how things should be...
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    "we understand how tight library budgets across the state are, and that is why we will be capping the fees for this engagement at $12,500. "

    I wonder how many books this could by instead of trying to further their own opinion on how things should be...
    That's just for the brief! If The SC accepts the case, their legal bill will run over $50k+ easy.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what the current political make up of the SC is?
    Big Gay Al
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Does anyone know what the current political make up of the SC is?
    4-3 GOP majority, GOP retained control this past november. *steps up on soapbox* you should know this Al, we just voted on it a month ago, don't you remember all the Kelly/Johsnson/McCormick & Zahra/Markman/O'brien commercials? We as gun owners need to make sure we pay special attention to judicial elections because the anti's are. The cadl was hoping like hell that it flipped to Democrats last election. *gets off soapbox*
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 12-09-2012 at 06:40 PM. Reason: spelling
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    4-3 GOP majority, GOP retained control this past november. *steps up on soapbox* you should know this Al, we just voted on it a month ago, don't you remember all the Kelly/Johsnson/McCormick & Zahra/Markman/O'brien commercials? We as gun owners need to make sure we pay special attention to judicial elections because the anti's are. The cadl was hoping like hell that it flipped to Democrats last election. *gets off soapbox*
    I always vote straight Republican ticket, but the judges are not always marked by party. And I didn't really see the results for state elections. They kind of got over shadowed by the national elections, like they usually do every four years.
    Big Gay Al
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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    As I understand it, Judges can't be party affiliated officially, however they may lean one way or the other in actions.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I always vote straight Republican ticket, but the judges are not always marked by party. And I didn't really see the results for state elections. They kind of got over shadowed by the national elections, like they usually do every four years.
    Michigan Supreme Court elections are non-partisan. The candidates are nominated by the parties, but are technically non-partisan so a straight ticket vote will not count towards them. Anti-gun forces have realized that passing gun control through legislatures is hard to do, the easiest way for them to accomplish this is through judicial activism(think aquilina). Think of the old phrase "when you can't bring something in the front door, you sneak it around the back". Now more than ever the control of the courts will be key to keeping the anti's from making any advances.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Exclamation Be scared! Be very, very scared you simple believers in the constitution.

    If the MI supreme court does take on this case & that's a big if. We need to contact the NRA (those who are still members) and those of us who aren't and let them know if they sit this one out they are DONE IN MI!

    Many here sat the CADL battle out too. If you choose to do so this time around don't complain when every place in the state starts spawning side walk authorities, speed bump/paring lot authorities, parks authorities and so on that are outside and above preemption all with the ability to ban guns.
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    One should not be surprised by this action, IIRC the City of Ferndale tried this same action but the MI Supreme Court did not hear the case.

    Interesting to watch how many Libraries join CADL....
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    One should not be surprised by this action, IIRC the City of Ferndale tried this same action but the MI Supreme Court did not hear the case.

    Interesting to watch how many Libraries join CADL....
    I can't believe the library's are allowed to use my tax dollars to wage this battle. I will remember this the next time a library milage comes up for vote.
    Last edited by wolverine1856; 12-09-2012 at 11:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    If the MI supreme court does take on this case & that's a big if. We need to contact the NRA (those who are still members) and those of us who aren't and let them know if they sit this one out they are DONE IN MI!

    Many here sat the CADL battle out too. If you choose to do so this time around don't complain when every place in the state starts spawning side walk authorities, speed bump/paring lot authorities, parks authorities and so on that are outside and above preemption all with the ability to ban guns.
    you really think the nra cares what you think after ll the bashing they get here because they support c.c more then open carry . Then you had some saying junk about them because they were for S.B.59. heck i might give some to the library. You don't support the way i happen to carry 90% of th time why should i support you

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question ???

    Quote Originally Posted by mirussell View Post
    you really think the nra cares what you think after ll the bashing they get here because they support c.c more then open carry . Then you had some saying junk about them because they were for S.B.59. heck i might give some to the library. You don't support the way i happen to carry 90% of th time why should i support you
    Do what you want it's your money (and our tax dollars). Who doesn't support the way you carry? The majority of folks who OC have no problem with CCers? I do both daily. Anyways do as you will. If the Library's are successful don't be shocked when your way of carry too is no longer allowed in the endless sea of AUTHORITIES that will spring up.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirussell View Post
    you really think the nra cares what you think after ll the bashing they get here because they support c.c more then open carry . Then you had some saying junk about them because they were for S.B.59. heck i might give some to the library. You don't support the way i happen to carry 90% of th time why should i support you
    I take it you CC? Do you like the preemption of firearms in the state of Michigan? I know I do because it prevents me from having to look up each localities laws regarding carry. If CADL somehow gets their way (even if it goes to the Supreme Court I don't think they will) then you can very much say good bye to a solid state preemption, CC or OC.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Gary Bender and his law firm must be grinning from ear to ear... they got these anti's worked up into a lather... and now time to cash in some more!!!! I think they probably are doing an end around with the finances too as it cost 70K for the first go around... then when he realized people were on to how much he was bilking the tax payers for he got wise and covered things up.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: CADL Prepares for War...what will you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    The stupidity of those who work in education is staggering.
    Libraries are staffed by librarians. This case deals with libraries and the letter went out to libraries and their respective boards. That being the case, why do you call out educators?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: CADL Prepares for War...what will you do?

    What everyone should do is attend their library board meeting and express your displeasure at this attempt to waste even more money to curtail a person's right. But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining. Or, even better, if they can just ban OC and not touch CC, we should be OK with this.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What everyone should do is attend their library board meeting and express your displeasure at this attempt to waste even more money to curtail a person's right.
    I was at the last CADL board meeting and spoke about the waste of nearly $80K in taxpayer money to argue against something that was lawful. So were some other people, none on MOC's board.

    But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining.
    Not sure to whom you are referring, but MOC's president has stated more than once that people shouldn't be silent, that if they oppose this bill they should act against it. Call their legislators, organize against it.

    If I understand you correctly, Dr. Todd, you are being disingenuous.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I was at the last CADL board meeting and spoke about the waste of nearly $80K in taxpayer money to argue against something that was lawful. So were some other people, none on MOC's board.

    Not sure to whom you are referring, but MOC's president has stated more than once that people shouldn't be silent, that if they oppose this bill they should act against it. Call their legislators, organize against it.

    If I understand you correctly, Dr. Todd, you are being disingenuous.
    But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining.

    I am sure that if you go look through the locked threads you will find the if you aren't a member you have no say. I think you yourself have said it in fact.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  20. #20
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining.
    I don't believe anyone has said that. What people have said, though, is you shouldn't be complaining about the same thing over and over and over again when you have already been given an answer. For example, Mike Stillwater asked why MOC endorsed SB59. He was told. Then he asked why MOC endorsed SB59. He was told again. Then he asked why MOC endorsed SB59. He was told again.

    As if the answer was going to change.

    Do you know how many times MOC's reasoning was posted here even before he began asking his questions? Over and over and over again.

    He did the same thing with the PFZ OC permission. He asked for someone to show him that in the bill. They did. Again he asked for someone to show him that in the bill. Someone else did. Then he asked for someone to show him that in the bill a third time. Again someone else did.

    I think that's when his threads began to be closed because he was just trolling.

    I am sure that if you go look through the locked threads you will find the if you aren't a member you have no say. I think you yourself have said it in fact.
    I have never said this, but I think you probably mean that one has no say in MOC's official position. That part is true and obvious since it has already been published.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What everyone should do is attend their library board meeting and express your displeasure at this attempt to waste even more money to curtail a person's right. But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining. Or, even better, if they can just ban OC and not touch CC, we should be OK with this.
    i've come expect more from you than that, you know that's not what people have said.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What everyone should do is attend their library board meeting and express your displeasure at this attempt to waste even more money to curtail a person's right. But then again, according to some here, since you aren't actually on a board and have chosen to do other things, you shouldn't be complaining. Or, even better, if they can just ban OC and not touch CC, we should be OK with this.
    I knew someone who had butt-hurt over MOC supporting SB-59 would say something to that effect in this thread. Just surprised it's you.
    Last edited by scot623; 12-10-2012 at 10:09 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I knew someone who had butt-hurt over MOC supporting SB-59 would same something to that effect in this thread. Just surprised it's you.
    nice
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: CADL Prepares for War...what will you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I knew someone who had butt-hurt over MOC supporting SB-59 would same something to that effect in this thread. Just surprised it's you.
    And I just knew that someone "butt hurt" over being questioned about their support for sb 59, despite it being poor legislation no matter how it is looked at, would try to claim I somehow take this argument personally. I'm not "hurt", just question how an organization that purports to support OC....doesn't...due to some claimed expediency. And, when people actually try to ask a very simple question, they are subjected to personal aspersions post after post. Then, only after attacking people personally do we begin to see the thought process involved. The fact remains that any organization which supports restricting OC, and then asks people to question other organizations when those organizations limit OC could be seen as hypocritical.
    But, if the posting on MCRGO is any indication of what's to come in regards to MI gun law, discussing this with the respective library boards will most likely be moot: they will just post signs as could, and most likely will, be allowed under state law. I think major OC organizations supporting sb 59 paved the way for this.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-10-2012 at 10:26 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I knew someone who had butt-hurt over MOC supporting SB-59 would say something to that effect in this thread. Just surprised it's you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    nice
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    And I just knew that someone "butt hurt" over being questioned about their support for sb 59, despite it being poor legislation no matter how it is looked at, would try to claim I somehow take this argument personally. I'm not "hurt", just question how an organization that purports to support OC....doesn't...due to some claimed expediency. And, when people actually try to ask a very simple question, they are subjected to personal aspersions post after post. Then, only after attacking people personally do we begin to see the thought process involved. The fact remains that any organization which supports restricting OC, and then asks people to question other organizations when those organizations limit OC could be seen as hypocritical.
    But, if the posting on MCRGO is any indication of what's to come in regards to MI gun law, discussing this with the respective library boards will most likely be moot: they will just post signs as could, and most likely will, be allowed under state law. I think major OC organizations supporting sb 59 paved the way for this.
    And here comes yet another locked thread Someone here had the idea of moving to less used state forums. I would invite you guys to slug it out in the AZ forum, but I can't do that to my new friends...

    DrTodd has always been a constant voice of reason in the MI forum. Can we please be civil. I know this is a heated subject and I too have gotten caught up in the heat of debate. We can do better people.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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