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Thread: proof of ID

  1. #1
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    proof of ID

    Ok so I have looked all over the place trying to find a legit yes or no answer on this with no luck. In north carolina am I required by law to provide my ID if stopped by a police officer for open carry? If so where is this law in the books so I can just confirm.

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    If you are thinking of withholding identity, whether verbally or as a document, you'll want to become familiar with all the angles.

    Complicating matters is that some localities may have stop-and-identify ordinances at the county or state level. There may be significant penalties for violation.

    And, that some states seem to charge refusal to identify as obstruction.

    You can read about more angles on the overall picture here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Cop-has-RAS&

    There are three US Supreme Court cases that bear on the question of identifying yourself to cop. They are linked at the webpage linked below--see the last three cases under the heading "5A Court Opinions":

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-09-2012 at 10:01 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Thank you sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew.carver1 View Post
    Thank you sir.
    You're welcome.

    I forgot a couple things.

    1. Regarding being charged with obstruction, this seems to be the game in states that lack stop-and-identify statutes.

    2. The first link discusses reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). I didn't explain how that ties into identity demands by cops. At the second link, there is a court case called Brown vs Texas. In that case, the US Supreme Court said in so many words that cops first have to have RAS before they can demand identity. So, really, the links are in reverse order. Read the cases at the second link first, then read the post about RAS.


    Of course, you still have to find out whether NC and the localities where you travel have stop-and-identify statute or ordinance, or use obstruction to penalize refusals to identify.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
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    We just had this conversation. Sometimes you might want to look around before asking in a new thread because the information might already available and current.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...NC-ID-statutes
    "I'm kinda high (or maybe low) profile around here, to hate on me is just sour grapes." - NCHeel

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC-Heel View Post
    We just had this conversation. Sometimes you might want to look around before asking in a new thread because the information might already available and current.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...NC-ID-statutes

    I think I will look around before answering questions.



    @Matthew.carver1

    Pay particular attention to post #11 in the thread linked by NC-Heel. You might also ask whether NC's case was dismissed because of the cop's perjury, or because there is case law in NC that says identity refusal is not obstruction. In your shoes I might want to nail down whether a case with a different set of facts might result in an obstruction conviction for refusing identity.

    Also, don't forget to look into local stop-and-identify ordinances in the areas you travel.


    Also, if a cop demands ID, you can always provide it while verbally refusing consent. This is my tactic. I cannot keep up with which localities have ordinances and which don't, and which passed a new one where one didn't exist last month. So, my tactic is to provide the ID document while refusing consent. That way, if I find out after the encounter that there was no authority to demand identity, I have an additional bullet point for a formal complaint.
    My policy is to write a formal complaint every time a cop investigately contacts me about my OCd gun--such contact proves they consider an enumerated right worthy of criminal suspicion, which is completely unacceptable, especially when they can observe from a distance without contact. And, since experience has shown that many cops can screw up even a consensual encounter, I am almost assured of having something else to include in my formal complaint. Thus, since the cop is going to learn my identity anyway when I write a formal complaint, I am much less concerned whether he learns my identity during the encounter.

    Cop: "I wanna see sum ID."

    OCer: (while getting out ID) "Yes, officer. I will comply with your demand. No offense, but I do not consent to showing it."
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-10-2012 at 04:00 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post

    1. Regarding being charged with obstruction, this seems to be the game in states that lack stop-and-identify statutes.
    .
    Yes, obstruction requires you to TAKE action, not not take it, know what I mean?

    Oh how many times have cops threatened me with this ... and I just laugh at them.

    A cop wants to figure out who I am .. call a detective, maybe he can figure it out...

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    thank heavens for nc-heels razor sharp mind...

    cut the gentleman some slack as he doesn't know his way around as well as you do...

    welcome Matthew...

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-10-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Yes, obstruction requires you to TAKE action, not not take it, know what I mean?

    Oh how many times have cops threatened me with this ... and I just laugh at them.

    A cop wants to figure out who I am .. call a detective, maybe he can figure it out...
    I also know that at least one midwestern state (can't recall which) treats identity refusals as obstruction. They have case law on it. So, while some (maybe even most) require an overt physical action or false report, at least one doesn't.

    And, I don't know whether the OPer's state does. So, lets not fog up the issue too much with blanket statements that may not apply in his exact state.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member J-SiN's Avatar
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    what would you do if you laughed at the cop when he threatened obstruction
    then he arrests you and takes you downtown

    now you have to go to court , pay a lawyer, and have obstruction (being charged with) on your record even if charges dismissed

    just curious

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    How much trouble can you get in to for not carrying something you're not legally required to carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-SiN View Post
    what would you do if you laughed at the cop when he threatened obstruction
    then he arrests you and takes you downtown

    now you have to go to court , pay a lawyer, and have obstruction (being charged with) on your record even if charges dismissed

    just curious
    That is what Civil suits are for. You sue the officer (who, since his union or department will pay for representation) loses nothing. You win the case, and your lawyer recovers his expenses, so he loses nothing. You win the case and as part of damages the arrest is expunged and you get a couple grand, so therefore you lose nothing.
    All in all it's win-win situation for everyone...... except for the poor citizens in the officer's community who have to pay fractions of a penny.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-11-2012 at 11:41 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    How much trouble can you get in to for not carrying something you're not legally required to carry?


    That is what Civil suits are for. You sue the officer (who, since his union or department will pay for representation) loses nothing. You win the case, and your lawyer recovers his expenses, so he loses nothing. You win the case and as part of damages the arrest is expunged and you get a couple grand, so therefore you lose nothing.
    All in all it's win-win situation for everyone...... except for the poor citizens in the officer's community who have to pay fractions of a penny.
    That's an oversimplification. You can lose the case.

    Expungements don't expunge the record sent to the fedgov. State courts cannot compel the fedgov to delete federal records.

    If arrested, your recording is guaranteed to be found. The worse the cop, the more likely for it to be deleted.

    We've seen federal cases take as much as five years to reach a decision.

    If arrested, you now have to put down the arrest on any job applications that request it. I have no information that an expungement totally voids all records everywhere. Especially if the media picked up the arrest and names you on their web news page. If you tell the truth about an arrest, a prospective employer may be inclined to just go on to the next application rather than spend time trying to sort out the details. If you lie about it by saying you were never arrested, and personnel does a quick web search and finds your name, well, forget that job application.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Oh, I'm familiar with civil cases and the possibility of loosing one.

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    Seems to me that OP's question was answered; some may not have liked NC-Heel's brusque answer, but he was correct. Smith45acp (in NC-Heel's link) provides futher information. Citizen is fogging the issue. NC has declared state pre-emption, and NC courts have held that possession of ID is not necessary to engage in lawful activity absent an existing requirement for ID (driving, CC).

    My answer to the demand of ID is simply "Sorry, can't help you. Goodbye." I have yet to need to proceed to the next line: "Why am I being detained?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    Seems to me that OP's question was answered; some may not have liked NC-Heel's brusque answer, but he was correct.
    I had to look up brusque for a definition. I thought I was rather courteous in my reply. The same topic had just been discussed with a lot of useful information that I knew no one wanted to repeat in this thread. I pointed him in the direction of the previous discussion that was still a first page topic and pointed out that one should look around for a minute before asking a question. The same 20 questions get answered over and over here as things change and to keep them current. Popular questions in no particular order.

    1. Is store X OC friendly?
    2. Is my gun considered concealed if holstered while driving?
    3. Do I have to show I.D. to LEO's?
    4. Can I carry into a convenience store that sells beer?
    5. Anyone carry in X county/city?
    etc....
    "I'm kinda high (or maybe low) profile around here, to hate on me is just sour grapes." - NCHeel

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