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Thread: Lori Haas lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Lori Haas lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion...2150c55c3.html

    "Unfortunately, Baker then dangles the straw man argument that “the numbers appear to contradict a long-running popular narrative that more guns cause more crime.”The problem is that gun violence prevention advocates in Virginia like me have never suggested any such thing. " Untrue, she has.

    She herself shifts the arguement made in last weeks article to 'gun deaths" while the article spoke of "gun crime".
    The Nov. 24 article blows big holes in the anti's arguement that "more guns equal more crime". As that article stated, gun sales are through the roof, but gun crime is down. So she changes the narrative.

    She blames "weak gun laws" on "(throwing) her own daughter into harms way." No mention that on a campus with thousands of people, only a very few LEO's were equipped to stop Cho's threat. No mention that Va. Tech was a "Gun Free Zone". Gee, Lori, how did the crime ever happen? There was a POLICY against it! In fact multiple laws against it!

    The RTD gave Lori her space, but also ran an editorial box in the print edition recapping the article from Nov. 24; I believe to show her inconsistencies and false arguements she made about the article.

    Question is, why does anyone listen to a person from such a small, radical, minority group?

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you might have to back up your actions with your life."

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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-11-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Lied about her daughter as well.

    Lori Hass says her daughter died due to lax gun laws. Her daughter died because Cho's mental illness was never entered into the official record which would have prevented him from legally buying a gun. She also cites the "reasonable requirement" for proper training. What kind of training? Who would decide at what level- basic, intermediate, or advanced?
    Last edited by MackTheKnife; 12-10-2012 at 01:41 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    Lori Hass says her daughter died due to lax gun laws. Her daughter died because Cho's mental illness was never entered into the official record which would have prevented him from legally buying a gun. She also cites the "reasonable requirement" for proper training. What kind of training? Who would decide at what level- basic, intermediate, or advanced?
    Haas' daughter was not killed during the attack, she was injured and survived.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    Lori Hass says her daughter died due to lax gun laws. Her daughter died because Cho's mental illness was never entered into the official record which would have prevented him from legally buying a gun.
    Please, lets not open that door any further. Those students were killed and injured because a madman wanted to kill.

    Psychiatry is notoriously arbitrary; the last thing we want is psych's deciding who can or cannot legally aquire the means to defend himself.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Please, lets not open that door any further. Those students were killed and injured because a madman wanted to kill.

    Psychiatry is notoriously arbitrary; the last thing we want is psych's deciding who can or cannot legally aquire the means to defend himself.
    Agreed 100%

    Pysch : So John Doe, why do you want to purchase a firearm?

    John Doe : Well, I would like to purchase one for target plinking and most definitely to protect my house and family.

    Pysch : I see you mentioned protecting house and family, do you place priority in your house over your family?

    Pysch : John, I am sorry but I will have to deny your right to purchase since you chose to say house and family.

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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    He was seen by medical professionals and I believe ordered into treatment. By law this should have been reported and would have precluded him buying a gun. It's not psych determining, it's the law determining.

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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    He was seen by medical professionals and I believe ordered into treatment. By law this should have been reported and would have precluded him buying a gun. It's not psych determining, it's the law determining.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    Medical professionals don't and can't report anything unless they believe there is a specific threat. They also don't report people ordered into treatment. There is a medical and legal difference between being ordered to treatment and being involuntarily committed. Following doctor orders is voluntary. Self-commitment is voluntary. Forced commitment is not.

    Just having ideations or showing signs is not enough. They have to believe the threat exists and that you will act on it.

    Most states have mandatory reporting laws but these tend to cover Domestic Abuse, child abuse, neglect and similar acts.

    General violence reporting is to protect the patient only and is like an affirmative defense. The psych must answer for divulging info and the patient's danger level to himself or others can mitigate that act

    Example:

    Patient X dreaming or having voices tell him to kill everyone is not enough.

    Patient X saying he wants to kill everyone could be enough depending on the patient and psych doctor.

    Patient X saying he is going to kill everyone is enough.



    Tap'n while driving...
    Last edited by Anonymouse; 12-10-2012 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
    Example:

    Patient X dreaming or having voices tell him to kill everyone is not enough.

    Patient X saying he wants to kill everyone could be enough depending on the patient and psych doctor.

    Patient X saying he is going to kill everyone is enough.



    Tap'n while driving...

    Person A: "Why did you kill everyone in the house?"
    Person B: "Because they were home."

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Haas' daughter was not killed during the attack, she was injured and survived.

    TFred
    Do we know her daughter's stance? Seems it can't be the same as Lori's, as we never hear of her.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Do we know her daughter's stance? Seems it can't be the same as Lori's, as we never hear of her.
    I have no idea. No easy picks from Google. If I had to guess, I would guess that she just wants to move on with her life and there probably isn't much she can do about her mother taking the spotlight, whether she supports her actions or not.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 12-10-2012 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Spell much?

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Psych angle is a slippery slope. See recent thread about denying veterans rights to gun ownership.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    Not relevant. Separate issue entirely.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    He was seen by medical professionals and I believe ordered into treatment. By law this should have been reported and would have precluded him buying a gun. It's not psych determining, it's the law determining.
    How so? Is this your position? It is the anti's erronious argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    Not relevant. Separate issue entirely.
    Refers to what?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Do we know her daughter's stance? Seems it can't be the same as Lori's, as we never hear of her.
    Ooo. This is a good question. Why is the actual victim not doing the complaining?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ooo. This is a good question. Why is the actual victim not doing the complaining?

    One would hope it's because she doesn't see herself as a "victim" but rather as a person who was caught in a situation from which she learned, which influenced her personality one way or another, and which is a part of life. That's the healthy-mentality progression.

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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Cool Let me clarify

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    How so? Is this your position? It is the anti's erronious argument.

    Refers to what?
    FROM WIKIPEDIA:
    Cho, a senior English major at Virginia Tech, had previously been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder. During much of his middle school and high school years, he received therapy and special education support. After graduating from high school, Cho enrolled at Virginia Tech. Because of federal privacy laws, Virginia Tech was unaware of Cho's previous diagnosis or the accommodations he had been granted at school. In 2005, Cho was accused of stalking two female students. After an investigation, a Virginia special justice declared Cho mentally ill and ordered him to attend treatment.[4] Lucinda Roy, a professor and former chairwoman of the English department, had also asked Cho to seek counseling.[5] Cho's mother also turned to her church for help.[6]
    The massacre prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had previously allowed Cho, an individual adjudicated as mentally unsound, to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). It also led to passage of the first major federal gun control measure in more than 13 years. The law strengthening the NICS was signed by President George W. Bush on January 5, 2008.[11]

    This is what I was referring to about Cho. If he had been "in the system", he wouldn't have been able to legally purchase a gun. If anyone has inferred that I am a proponent of needing a psych eval to purchase a gun, far from it. About the only thing I agree with is the instant background check. Other than that, the 2nd Amendment says it all.
    As for the relevant comment, I was referring to the VA situation, which is AFU, wasn't the same thing as the Cho situation. I wholeheartedly and strenuously disagree with the VA being the arbiter of whether or not a veteran can or can't have a gun.
    I hope I have cleared up what I was trying to say and apologize for any confusion or offense. None was intended.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Its a lot deeper than that.
    The simple fact is the Government can't filter out nuts any more than it can stop NY Construction Workers from making colorful comments to passing women.

    There are some things that have to fall back on basics and that means people being responsible for their own safety.

    The simple and indisputable fact is...if someone had killed the neurotic little fellow in the beginning, he wouldn't have been a threat any longer.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Its a lot deeper than that.
    The simple fact is the Government can't filter out nuts any more than it can stop NY Construction Workers from making colorful comments to passing women.

    There are some things that have to fall back on basics and that means people being responsible for their own safety.

    The simple and indisputable fact is...if someone had killed the neurotic little fellow in the beginning, he wouldn't have been a threat any longer.
    That's too much common sense for the liberal mind to process.

    TFred

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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    Yeah! Good point.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There was/is another mother who saw things very differently.

    Read about Holly Adams whose daughter, Leslie, was a victim at VT.

    "Speaking for myself, I would give anything if someone on campus; a
    professor, one of the trained military or guardsman taking classes or
    another student could have saved my daughter by shooting Cho before he
    killed our loved ones. Because professors, staff and students are
    precluded from protecting themselves on campus, Cho, a student at
    Virginia Tech himself, was able to simply walk on campus and go on a
    killing rampage with no worry that anyone would stop him."

    http://www2.vcdl.org/webapps/vcdl/va...?RECID=6619361
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    Quote Originally Posted by MackTheKnife View Post
    FROM WIKIPEDIA:
    Cho, a senior English major at Virginia Tech, had previously been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder. During much of his middle school and high school years, he received therapy and special education support. After graduating from high school, Cho enrolled at Virginia Tech. Because of federal privacy laws, Virginia Tech was unaware of Cho's previous diagnosis or the accommodations he had been granted at school. In 2005, Cho was accused of stalking two female students. After an investigation, a Virginia special justice declared Cho mentally ill and ordered him to attend treatment.[4] Lucinda Roy, a professor and former chairwoman of the English department, had also asked Cho to seek counseling.[5] Cho's mother also turned to her church for help.[6]
    The massacre prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had previously allowed Cho, an individual adjudicated as mentally unsound, to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). It also led to passage of the first major federal gun control measure in more than 13 years. The law strengthening the NICS was signed by President George W. Bush on January 5, 2008.[11]

    This is what I was referring to about Cho. If he had been "in the system", he wouldn't have been able to legally purchase a gun. If anyone has inferred that I am a proponent of needing a psych eval to purchase a gun, far from it. About the only thing I agree with is the instant background check. Other than that, the 2nd Amendment says it all.
    As for the relevant comment, I was referring to the VA situation, which is AFU, wasn't the same thing as the Cho situation. I wholeheartedly and strenuously disagree with the VA being the arbiter of whether or not a veteran can or can't have a gun.
    I hope I have cleared up what I was trying to say and apologize for any confusion or offense. None was intended.
    Anybody else notice the contradiction? He received therapy "during much of his middle school and high school years." It didn't work.

    A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.
    Just a little more treatment and all of this could have been prevented.

    Yep.
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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Anybody else notice the contradiction? He received therapy "during much of his middle school and high school years." It didn't work.

    A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.
    Therapy isn't some magic pill. Heck, half the time meds, and therapy do absolutely nothing. Or you have to consistently adjust or change them. But meds and therapy are better then not having either.

    Another thing people forget is that mental illness is not curable and it progresses. If the treatment is successful that just means it halts or slows the progression.

    The only real way to prevent the killings is... Wait there is no real way other then everyone carrying. Then you could possibly stop them before they kill anyone or at least mitigate the damage.

    Banning the mentally ill from having guns outright is not the solution though. Many have crisis but recover as they age. Many are only a danger to themselves.


    Tap'n while driving...

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    First, let’s state you are and have been in good mental health throughout your life, a good provider to your family, and citizen of your society…
    1) Then you unexpectedly lose a loved one …you pick… your child, partner or?
    2) You’ve also lost your job and all the ramifications associated w/loss of earnings.
    3) You’ve started to self medicate – you pick… alcohol or marijuana or other illicit substance
    4) Now you’ve gotten into judicial trouble…

    Your world, as you know it, is crashing about you as you become more and more depressed and despondent, possibly even w/suicidal ideations or even attempts.

    A friend intervenes and you are now in psychotherapy to assist you through these troubling times you are experiencing…mental health providers providing treatment should report your situation to who? and why?

    Most individual’s mental health issues are situational and with the right psychotherapy and possibly the judicious use of psychotropic medicine(s) from properly trained professional(s), individuals overcome and regain their grounding to continue functioning within our society and should w/out the stigma they were overwhelmed w/life’s stressors.

    Anonymouse: quote: Another thing people forget is that mental illness is not curable and it progresses. If the treatment is successful that just means it halts or slows the progression. Unquote I challenge that perception as thousands of individuals across our society are assisted through their crisises through the assistance from mental health professionals.

    Now for the other posters who want the mental health professional to notify someone in authority when someone in treatment articulates a threat during their treatment sessions. First and foremost the client’s confidentiality is protected by law and professional ethics. Now the majority of the states have statutes containing a provision of when and who to notify in case appropriate narrowly focused criteria are met and the mental health professional believes an active threat is imminent. Most do notify!!

    American’s populace is the most legally doped up nation in the world and according to a medscape report (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753789):

    “1 in 5 adult Americans took at least 1 psychiatric medication in 2010. In women, the statistic was 1 in 4.by almost three times. Antidepressants were the most commonly used medications, with more than 20% of women receiving them. Antianxiolytics were also widely used by women, at almost twice the rate of men. The greatest use was in women aged 45 to 65 years, 11% of whom were taking an antianxiety medication in 2010.”

    Psychotropic medication use was also increased in children, although antidepressant use in children dropped substantially, a trend that was largely attributed to 2004 warnings issued by the US Food and Drug Administration about an increased risk for suicidal ideation. The analysis also showed a drop in ADHD medication use in children since 2005. However, the number of children receiving atypical antipsychotics doubled from 2001 to 2010, a phenomenon Dr. Muzina said should raise a red flag.”

    “In addition to more than tripling their use of ADHD medications since 2001, the 20- to 44-year-old group also saw significant spikes in their use of atypical antipsychotics (248%), and their use of antianxiety treatments was up nearly 30%. “

    why are the parents allowing their children to be doped up...because the caregiver is also over stressed and doped up dealing w/life:

    wabbit

    PS do not lay the blame for mass killings at the feet of those in the mental health field...lets ask the caregivers why they are doped up and allowing their children to be in the same state!!
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-11-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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    Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    I challenge that perception as thousands of individuals across our society are assisted through their crisises through the assistance from mental health professionals.

    Let's be clear.

    I don't consider situational depression to be mental illness anymore than having a precancerous spot on your skin to be the end of the world. Call it, instead, long term grief or sadness.

    Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, dysrythmia, other similar serious illnesses and the hoard of personality disorders do NOT go away and are not cured.

    At best they are managed. You mentioned crisis. Here is the difference between a healthy person and a mentally ill person. A healthy person may have one or even a few crises in their life. A mentally ill person goes from crisis to crisis.

    I'm sure you know someone with a serious mental illness. I'll bet you dollars to donuts they will say they are hanging on. Kinda like alcoholics do. Sure you get better at managing but lose that medicine and bam.

    No as to your assertion that people are over medicated? I agree completely. Blame that on general practitioners. How many if those kids actually see psychs (iatrists and ologists)? Most kids I've seen see their family doctor that prescribed the medicine. That's like seeing a public defender to work your bankruptcy case...


    Some people may not even need medicine. Hell, some people beat cancer without chemo. Shrug, it happens. Some alcoholics don't need AA. Most do though...

    This is why most crimes committed by mentally ill people almost invariably happen when they are either not on meds/in therapy or when they stopped taking them when they feel better. This is extremely common with bipolar and schizophrenia. You take the meds, feel better, think "I'm managing this just fine," stop the meds and then immediately decompensate.

    It's extremely common... I know lol...

    Tap'n while driving...
    Last edited by Anonymouse; 12-11-2012 at 06:33 PM.

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