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Thread: Carrying in Columbus Oh.

  1. #1
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    Carrying in Columbus Oh.

    Getting ready to look things up on my own but thought I'd ask here to.

    Going to a concert in Columbus in March. I will be coming from Indiana. I know I can oc legally from Ind. I also have my Utah NR and plan on CC while in Ohio. Any places I cannot carry legally? Show is at the 'Schott' and dont know what their policies are. Also will be hitting a few bars. Rules for alcohol concumption and carring? Be taking a taxi also. Also we will be taking the wifes pistol. Any problems having it in her name but laying it in my vehicle? Dont want her to get in trouble since its in her name but wont be in her possesion.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-12-2012 at 08:12 PM. Reason: Fixed title

  2. #2
    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Getting ready to look things up on my own but thought I'd ask here to.

    Going to a concert in Columbus in March. I will be coming from Indiana. I know I can oc legally from Ind. I also have my Utah NR and plan on CC while in Ohio. Any places I cannot carry legally? Show is at the 'Schott' and dont know what their policies are.
    You can't carry anyplace that's posted, and that ought to include "The Schott", which is on campus.
    In fact, you can't "carry" anywhere on campus outside of your car, unless you are in the act of locking your gun up in your car.

    2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.


    (B)(5) Any premises owned or leased by any public or private college, university, or other institution of higher education, unless the handgun is in a locked motor vehicle or the licensee is in the immediate process of placing the handgun in a locked motor vehicle;


    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Also will be hitting a few bars. Rules for alcohol concumption and carring?
    Carrying in a Class "D" liquor establishment is forbidden, unless you have an Ohio recognized Concealed Handgun License.
    Consuming even the first sip while carrying is a FELONY, if you are in a bar or restaurant, Class "D" establishment.
    You can consume while carrying elsewhere, say your hotel room, as long as you don't become "under the influence"

    ORC 2923.121 Possession of firearm in beer liquor permit premises - prohibition, exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Be taking a taxi also. Also we will be taking the wifes pistol. Any problems having it in her name but laying it in my vehicle? Dont want her to get in trouble since its in her name but wont be in her possesion.
    In "her name" with whom?
    We have no such registration in Ohio, and there is no data base to check it against, other than guns reported stolen.

    Carrying your wife's gun is no problem as long as it hasn't been reported stolen
    Last edited by Chuck!; 12-10-2012 at 07:35 PM.

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    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
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    Hey chuck. Letís give the correct information. You can carry in a class D liquor establishment that sells liquor without a CCW. If class D liquor is a bar, you need a CCW permit. Remember the law says class D liquor establishment where alcohol is consumed on the premises. That is a bar. There is no law in Ohio that bans guns from liquor selling establishments unless the owner of the establishment posts the Gun buster sign.

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    Show me where the law defines this as a "bar":

    (A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.121

    Also, I would be curious to know if this means you were carrying in alcohol-serving restaurants prior to Sept. 2011.
    Last edited by RT48; 12-11-2012 at 04:02 PM.

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    Carring in Columbus Oh.

    There seem to be two requirements for that particular ban on carry:

    One, there must be consumption going on in the room. Two, the premises must have a liquor license. It sure sounds as if either of those two conditions are not met, no license is required.


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    Last edited by RCall; 12-11-2012 at 08:14 PM. Reason: Typed response before reading all replies, issue already addressed.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    Hey chuck. Let’s give the correct information. You can carry in a class D liquor establishment that sells liquor without a CCW. If class D liquor is a bar, you need a CCW permit. Remember the law says class D liquor establishment where alcohol is consumed on the premises. That is a bar. There is no law in Ohio that bans guns from liquor selling establishments unless the owner of the establishment posts the Gun buster sign.
    Not quite true, Makarov
    First of all, a "Class D" establishment may be either a restaurant, a bar, an outdoor arena, or a grocery store. Basically anyplace where one may purchase and consume on the premises.
    And the law absolutely forbids carrying if ANYONE is consuming in the same room as the gun carrier (unless they have a CHL). This means even the cook in the kitchen will be committing a crime if he is carrying and some drunk wanders back there with his beer in his hand.

    ORC 2923.121 Possession of firearm in beer liquor permit premises - prohibition, exceptions.

    (A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued.
    This outlaws the act of carrying in those places if any alcohol is being consumed in that room or outdoor arena

    Section (B)(1) lists the exceptions, (a)LEOs, (b)authorized state employees, (c)hotel rooms, and beginning with (d) CHL holders, LEOs etc, who hold the liquor permit, and (e) CHL holders who are not consuming alcohol

    Sections (B)(2) excludes Veterans with rifles in Veteran's clubs if the rifle is not loaded, and (3) allows for displaying sale or trade at shows as long as they are unloaded.

    Section (C) allows for an affirmative defense in such places while carrying long guns, but the OP specifically said handguns, not long guns.

    This post links the actual law. Please feel free to quote the part that proves my advice to the OP was wrong.
    Teach me something, Makarov
    Expand my knowledge.
    Show me how I am wrong

    Your turn,
    Batter up!!
    Last edited by Chuck!; 12-11-2012 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT48 View Post
    Show me where the law defines this as a "bar":



    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.121

    Also, I would be curious to know if this means you were carrying in alcohol-serving restaurants prior to Sept. 2011.
    I don't think he should admit to committing a crime if he was carrying back then,,,,

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    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
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    Chuck you said this...Carrying in a Class "D" liquor establishment is forbidden, unless you have an Ohio recognized Concealed Handgun License. Consuming even the first sip while carrying is a FELONY, if you are in a bar or restaurant, Class "D" establishment. You can consume while carrying elsewhere, say your hotel room, as long as you don't become "under the influence"

    Chuck! My emphasis was...a class D liquor establishment that sells liquor only. No CCW is required there. Yes, if they consume liquor on premises that is usually a bar. Although there are some exceptions; some stores do have wine tasting events. That would support the CCW requirement only during the time of the event, but the way you first phased it in the threat lead to the idea that you cannot open carry in a store that sells liquor. Thats not true!
    Last edited by Makarov; 12-12-2012 at 04:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Unlicensed carry in any class D establishment in which another person is consuming is a felony, be it a bar, restaurant, stadium, or grocery store.

    If you want to risk your freedom and criminal record by relying on the actions of another person, you can go right ahead
    My advice stands


    You, OTOH, stated "Remember the law says class D liquor establishment where alcohol is consumed on the premises. That is a bar."
    Which is in direct conflict with the statute I linked to.

    My advice still stands.

    I cleared up any misunderstanding in my previous post already, something you still haven't done with the misinformation you posted

    You're not trying to get our friend from Indiana arrested are you?

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    Chuck there are different kinds of Class D licenses, from D-1 to like D-8. Not all of them allow premises consumption of alcohol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Chuck there are different kinds of Class D licenses, from D-1 to like D-8. Not all of them allow premises consumption of alcohol.
    And it's not always obvious which ones do and which ones do not. There are several places nearby which are, by all appearances, just delicatessens, cafes, sandwich joints, etc., but which have a selection of beers which may be consumed on-premises, along with your lunch or dinner. To limit one's analysis to "bars" could easily place a non-licensee in the position of committing a felony. Chuck's cautionary explanations are well warranted.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Chuck there are different kinds of Class D licenses, from D-1 to like D-8. Not all of them allow premises consumption of alcohol.
    Which is why I clarified it in my post #7

    But think on this. The law doesn't specify D-1 or D-2, etc. It says simply: "No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued."

    It doesn't require that underlined "any person" to be consuming legally, just consuming.
    The way I read it, a person could open a bottle and drink from it in a place they may not be allowed to drink in, and the unlicensed gun carrier is still committing a crime

    What do you think?

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    Carring in Columbus Oh.

    In order to be guilty of a crime, there must be criminal intent. I wouldn't want to be the test case, nor am I pushing anyone to put themselves into a position where they could become one, however I think it would be a winner in court to argue that someone else's criminal act, of which you are unaware, that causes your otherwise lawful activity to violate the law, cannot possibly create the (until then lacking) criminal intent on your part.

    On a side note, does HB 495 change this bit of stupidity?


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    Last edited by eye95; 12-12-2012 at 05:57 PM.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    The word you are seeking is "knowingly", which is not in this law.

    I asked the legislators to add that word to the Restaurant Carry bill when I testified on it a couple years ago to prevent accidental felonies. They turned me down.

    Ignorance is no excuse, as the saying goes,,,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    The word you are seeking is "knowingly", which is not in this law.

    I asked the legislators to add that word to the Restaurant Carry bill when I testified on it a couple years ago to prevent accidental felonies. They turned me down.

    Ignorance is no excuse, as the saying goes,,,,
    When the culpable mental state is not specifically stated, it is recklessness, except where there is a clear intent for strict liability, which is rare, particularly for felony offense. Therefore, one need only act with heedless indifference to the consequences and perversely disregard a known risk that such circumstances are likely to exist. More simply put, "don't know, don't care."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    In order to be guilty of a crime, there must be criminal intent. I wouldn't want to be the test case, nor am I pushing anyone to put themselves into a position where they could become one, however I think it would be a winner in court to argue that someone else's criminal act, of which you are unaware, that causes your otherwise lawful activity to violate the law, cannot possibly create the (until then lacking) criminal intent on your part.

    On a side note, does HB 495 change this bit of stupidity?


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    This isn't entirely true. There are strict liability crimes where NO criminal intent is required to be convicted of the crime. An example is when someone causes damage or death due to their actions, regardless of whether it was their intent to cause that damage or death.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    See the post above yours.

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    The saying is, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse," meaning that not knowing that an activity is illegal is no excuse for doing it, not meaning that ignorance of the actions of another that could turn your actions into a violation of the law isn't an excuse. It may well be.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    ORC 2923.121


    (E) Whoever violates this section is guilty of illegal possession of a firearm in a liquor permit premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, illegal possession of a firearm in a liquor permit premises is a felony of the fifth degree. If the offender commits the violation of this section by knowingly carrying or having the firearm concealed on the offenderís person or concealed ready at hand, illegal possession of a firearm in a liquor permit premises is a felony of the third degree.

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    Carrying in Columbus Oh.

    OK, if we are going to get repetitive and argue in circles, I'll just repeat what I wrote an then move on:

    In order to be guilty of a crime, there must be criminal intent. I wouldn't want to be the test case, nor am I pushing anyone to put themselves into a position where they could become one, however I think it would be a winner in court to argue that someone else's criminal act, of which you are unaware, that causes your otherwise lawful activity to violate the law, cannot possibly create the (until then lacking) criminal intent on your part.


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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    The law I quoted makes a distinction between knowingly and unknowingly, the difference being one is a fourth degree felony and the other is a fifth degree felony.

    My intent in this thread is to give our friends from Indiana sound advice in order to keep them from getting jammed up during their upcoming visit to our fine state.
    What is yours?

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    It is to give our friends from Indiana crappy advice in order to cause them to get jammed up during their upcoming visit to our fine state.


    What do you think my goal is?

    Ya know what? That comment you saw when you tried to PM me was no accident. You were on ignore and your PMs were blocked because I had arrived at the conclusion that you read long before I ever posted to you--or you to me. You are a nice guy in person. On these forums you are what the error message said. Back to ignore with you.
    _______________

    Folks, no one is saying to tempt fate, regardless of what one person on this site implies about almost everyone else. Do not deliberately put yourself in the position of causing some grief. But also realize that the law has nuances that aren't found in the written word. One of those is that to commit a crime, one must have criminal intent. That intent can be formed in numerous ways, some surprisingly not obviously nefarious. For example, if you fire a gun, perfectly innocently, and strike an unintended target, injuring a person, you could be criminally liable. The intent followed the bullet. Even though your intent was seemingly innocent, it became criminal because of your carelessness. However, whatever your non-criminal intent by carrying, how can it be made criminal purely by the criminal choices of another who happens to be nearby???

    Like I said, don't put yourself in jeopardy, but remember the idea of criminal intent should you find yourself jammed up.
    _______________

    Moving on. This experiment in talking to this guy has failed. I knew better before I ever posted to him, but meeting him in person made me wonder if I jumped the gun. I didn't.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    It amuses me that you choose to discuss the antics from another board here rather than the actual law that I quoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    Which is why I clarified it in my post #7

    But think on this. The law doesn't specify D-1 or D-2, etc. It says simply: "No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued."

    It doesn't require that underlined "any person" to be consuming legally, just consuming.
    The way I read it, a person could open a bottle and drink from it in a place they may not be allowed to drink in, and the unlicensed gun carrier is still committing a crime

    What do you think?
    That very thing crossed my mind when it actually happened to me years ago, at a rural crossroads gas station/deli with carry out beer available. One of the good ol' boys there was sitting down drinking his lunch rather than eating it if you get my drift. Didn't notice him until I was in line at the register to pay for my gasoline. It occured to me that if a cop were to enter right then and start talking to me for some law enforcement purpose I might have explaining to do. But also figured I'd do my best to get the drinker and store proprietor booked for liquor control violations, if nothing else I'd have company in the lockup.

    In all seriousness though I was in a place where it was NOT legal for that guy to be consuming alcohol, but with my carry license it was perfectly legal for me to be there buying gasoline while armed. (I checked on the particulars of the place's liquor license at a later time, Werz, in case you were wondering.) What the heck was I supposed to do about the Vinton County Foster Brooks wannabe chugging down a Tall Boy in violation of the law, leave and disarm? Didn't make any sense to the part of my brain that does the decision making.

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