Carrying in Columbus Oh.

OK, if we are going to get repetitive and argue in circles, I'll just repeat what I wrote an then move on:

In order to be guilty of a crime, there must be criminal intent. I wouldn't want to be the test case, nor am I pushing anyone to put themselves into a position where they could become one, however I think it would be a winner in court to argue that someone else's criminal act, of which you are unaware, that causes your otherwise lawful activity to violate the law, cannot possibly create the (until then lacking) criminal intent on your part.


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<o>

The law I quoted makes a distinction between knowingly and unknowingly, the difference being one is a fourth degree felony and the other is a fifth degree felony.

My intent in this thread is to give our friends from Indiana sound advice in order to keep them from getting jammed up during their upcoming visit to our fine state.
What is yours?

It is to give our friends from Indiana crappy advice in order to cause them to get jammed up during their upcoming visit to our fine state.


What do you think my goal is?

Ya know what? That comment you saw when you tried to PM me was no accident. You were on ignore and your PMs were blocked because I had arrived at the conclusion that you read long before I ever posted to you--or you to me. You are a nice guy in person. On these forums you are what the error message said. Back to ignore with you.
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Folks, no one is saying to tempt fate, regardless of what one person on this site implies about almost everyone else. Do not deliberately put yourself in the position of causing some grief. But also realize that the law has nuances that aren't found in the written word. One of those is that to commit a crime, one must have criminal intent. That intent can be formed in numerous ways, some surprisingly not obviously nefarious. For example, if you fire a gun, perfectly innocently, and strike an unintended target, injuring a person, you could be criminally liable. The intent followed the bullet. Even though your intent was seemingly innocent, it became criminal because of your carelessness. However, whatever your non-criminal intent by carrying, how can it be made criminal purely by the criminal choices of another who happens to be nearby???

Like I said, don't put yourself in jeopardy, but remember the idea of criminal intent should you find yourself jammed up.
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Moving on. This experiment in talking to this guy has failed. I knew better before I ever posted to him, but meeting him in person made me wonder if I jumped the gun. I didn't.

It amuses me that you choose to discuss the antics from another board here rather than the actual law that I quoted.

Chuck! said:

Which is why I clarified it in my post #7

But think on this. The law doesn't specify D-1 or D-2, etc. It says simply: "No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued."

It doesn't require that underlined "any person" to be consuming legally, just consuming.
The way I read it, a person could open a bottle and drink from it in a place they may not be allowed to drink in, and the unlicensed gun carrier is still committing a crime

What do you think?

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That very thing crossed my mind when it actually happened to me years ago, at a rural crossroads gas station/deli with carry out beer available. One of the good ol' boys there was sitting down drinking his lunch rather than eating it if you get my drift. Didn't notice him until I was in line at the register to pay for my gasoline. It occured to me that if a cop were to enter right then and start talking to me for some law enforcement purpose I might have explaining to do. But also figured I'd do my best to get the drinker and store proprietor booked for liquor control violations, if nothing else I'd have company in the lockup.

In all seriousness though I was in a place where it was NOT legal for that guy to be consuming alcohol, but with my carry license it was perfectly legal for me to be there buying gasoline while armed. (I checked on the particulars of the place's liquor license at a later time, Werz, in case you were wondering.) What the heck was I supposed to do about the Vinton County Foster Brooks wannabe chugging down a Tall Boy in violation of the law, leave and disarm? Didn't make any sense to the part of my brain that does the decision making.

Brian D. said:

That very thing crossed my mind when it actually happened to me years ago, at a rural crossroads gas station/deli with carry out beer available. One of the good ol' boys there was sitting down drinking his lunch rather than eating it if you get my drift. Didn't notice him until I was in line at the register to pay for my gasoline. It occured to me that if a cop were to enter right then and start talking to me for some law enforcement purpose I might have explaining to do. But also figured I'd do my best to get the drinker and store proprietor booked for liquor control violations, if nothing else I'd have company in the lockup.

In all seriousness though I was in a place where it was NOT legal for that guy to be consuming alcohol, but with my carry license it was perfectly legal for me to be there buying gasoline while armed. (I checked on the particulars of the place's liquor license at a later time, Werz, in case you were wondering.) What the heck was I supposed to do about the Vinton County Foster Brooks wannabe chugging down a Tall Boy in violation of the law, leave and disarm? Didn't make any sense to the part of my brain that does the decision making.

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Is the owner of a place like that allowed to drink a beer in his own store?

"I didn't know the speed limit was 35 on unmarked city roads"

"I thought she was at least 18"

"I didn't know my husband left his pistol in the car"

"Maybe one of my kid's friends left that crack pipe under the seat"

"I forgot my gun was in my carry-on"


Do the cops really need to "show intent" on all of these?

The police do not have to prove intent.

That's what prosecutors are for.

Excellent point.

I couldn't see the post to which you were responding, but it musta been a laugher!

Of course the police do not prove intent. At most, they can (and usually do) exercise discretion when they see no intent. However, if they have PC, they can ignore the intent question, make the arrest, and let the prosecutor deal with intent.

But, to be found guilty of a crime, there must be criminal intent. It may vary from crime to crime how that intent was demonstrated by the accused, or how it is proven by the prosecutor, but criminal intent must be there for an action to be a crime.


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<o>

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The police do not have to prove intent.

That's what prosecutors are for.

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Police and prosecutors are the same side.

Although I am sure you don't intend it that way, it appears that you are using semantics to claim that a prosecutor will accept a "I didn't know she was under age", or a "I didn't know what the speed limit was" defense based on "intent"

Would you mind clarifying?

Chuck! said:

"I didn't know the speed limit was 35 on unmarked city roads"

"I thought she was at least 18"

"I didn't know my husband left his pistol in the car"

"Maybe one of my kid's friends left that crack pipe under the seat"

"I forgot my gun was in my carry-on"

Do the cops really need to "show intent" on all of these?

Click to expand...

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The police do not have to prove intent.

That's what prosecutors are for.

Click to expand...

Chuck! said:

Police and prosecutors are the same side.

Although I am sure you don't intend it that way, it appears that you are using semantics to claim that a prosecutor will accept a "I didn't know she was under age", or a "I didn't know what the speed limit was" defense based on "intent"

Would you mind clarifying?

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Certainly.

Police and prosecutors are indeed on the same side...against you.

My main point is this: POLICE do not have to prove INTENT.

You did not INTEND to stab that guy, but they found your fingerprints on the knife.

You can tell the police whatever story you choose but they can still charge you with a crime and may arrest you. This can happen even if you have a verifiable alibi and are completely innocent.

Once you get into court, the prosecutor then has to prove your guilt. You can then bring up your "intent" as a defense in front of the judge and/or jury.

Thx guys, guess I better leave it in my room. At least in Ind we can carry into bars! lol

I carry a boot knife and reg pocket knife. Any problems carring a double edged boot knife? 3" long I believe.

hogeater f6 said:

Thx guys, guess I better leave it in my room. At least in Ind we can carry into bars! lol

I carry a boot knife and reg pocket knife. Any problems carring a double edged boot knife? 3" long I believe.

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The title of your post mentions Columbus. This is not one of the few cities with knife restrictions.

The concealed carry restriction on knives is a STATE law. It does not matter the size of the knife, as long as it is not concealed.

hogeater f6 said:

Thx guys, guess I better leave it in my room. At least in Ind we can carry into bars! lol

I carry a boot knife and reg pocket knife. Any problems carring a double edged boot knife? 3" long I believe.

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If you have a CHL, (and your Utah license will do) you can carry in a bar.
You just can't drink.

Can you drink in a bar while carrying in Indiana?

Chuck! said:

If you have a CHL, (and your Utah license will do) you can carry in a bar.
You just can't drink.

Can you drink in a bar while carrying in Indiana?

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I'm gonna party when I'm there like its 2006 again! lol

Yes, no law against it in Ind. Ind is one of the 'free-est' States I been to. Only place we cannot carry (that I can think of right off hand) is Fed property (PO, court, etc), secured airport side and Schools. Unless you are staying in your car-kid pick up, schools are good.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The title of your post mentions Columbus. This is not one of the few cities with knife restrictions.

The concealed carry restriction on knives is a STATE law. It does not matter the size of the knife, as long as it is not concealed.

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So a boot knife, covered by my pants is no good?

Legal clarification:

Nobody needs to prove "intent." Intent = Purpose. Proof of purpose is definitely not required for the offense in question.

Knowledge is not required, either.

Only recklessness is required for a violation of R.C. 2923.121(A). As I said before:

One need only act with heedless indifference to the consequences and perversely disregard a known risk that such circumstances are likely to exist. More simply put, "don't know, don't care."

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The police need only probable cause to believe that you acted recklessly in order to arrest you. The prosecutor must prove recklessness beyond a reasonable doubt. However, the jury can infer recklessness from the circumstances without ever hearing a single word from you. The jury will be instructed:

A person is reckless with respect to circumstances when, with heedless indifference to the consequences, he perversely disregards a known risk that such circumstances are likely to exist. Risk means a significant possibility, as contrasted with a remote possibility, that that certain circumstances may exist.

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Bottom line: Don't push your luck. Even if you testify, a jury is not required to believe anything you say. They may believe you didn't know, but they may also believe that you really didn't care whether you were prohibited from carrying, and if so, they can and will find you guilty. And convincing yourself that you will have a jury packed with pro-gun advocates like the folks in these forums is beyond delusional.

hogeater f6 said:

So a boot knife, covered by my pants is no good?

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Is it a knife? Yes.
Is it concealed? Yes.

Then it is a crime in Ohio.

A boxcutter in your pocket at work.
A knife on your keychain in your purse.
A necklace knife under your shirt.


These are ALL crimes. How many of YOU are criminals?

I know I am!

:banana:

Then it is a crime in Ohio.

A boxcutter in your pocket at work.
A knife on your keychain in your purse.
A necklace knife under your shirt.


These are ALL crimes. How many of YOU are criminals?

I know I am!

:banana:[/QUOTE]

I'm guilty, I have a pocket knife. Hence it is in my pocket. It's just not handy taped to my forehead for all to see.




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CornfedinOhio said:

I'm guilty, I have a pocket knife. Hence it is in my pocket. It's just not handy taped to my forehead for all to see.

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I can't tape a knife to my forehead...that's where I keep my gun!