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Thread: SB 59 Update

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    SB 59 Update

    From MCRGO

    SB 59 UPDATE: We've received information that at today's meeting between the House, Senate and Governor Snyder's office, the administration made new demands in exchange for the governor's signature on the bill.

    Snyder now wants to give public and private properties that are currently “pistol free zones” (K-12 schools, day cares, churches, stadiums, movie theaters, bars, hospitals, college dorms/classrooms) the ability to post signs banning guns even for people carrying an enhanced CPL under the bill.

    Philosophically, we don't have a problem with private property owners being able to control their own private property. We DO have a problem with publicly owned/operated "stadium authorities", schools, and universities regulating firearms. These concepts spit in the face of preemption and would create a patchwork of regulations across the state. It would turn SB 59 into a gun control bill resulting in a net reduction of rights for legal gun owners.

    At this point, it appears Foster and Green will move forward with SB 59 without giving in to the governor's latest demands even if it risks a veto. Details are changing by the hour and will continue to change through the expected final day of legislative session on Thursday.
    IMO this bill has little to no chance. The last thing I ever want to see in Michigan is giving places the option of posting an enforceable "no guns" sign. It is my belief that if given the option, you will see them everywhere! Don't believe me drive to Ohio.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/governor/...un_Control.htm I like how according to this Rick supports the right of citizens with permits to carry. What a joke!

    Q: Would you uphold the 2nd Amendment and support the rights of gun owners as well as the hunting industry?
    A: In one word: absolutely. I actually own three guns myself. I have a 12 gauge shotgun and two .22 rifles that I use for target shooting. I believe the 2nd amendment also protects the right of citizens to have a gun in their home to protect their family and property. I also support the rights of gun owners to responsibly carry their gun, as long as they have attained the legal permit. While I'm not an avid hunter, I support the industry and believe it plays an important role in our economy and quality of life. It also can have a valuable environmental conservation impact and I would work to streamline the processes so that hunters get better customer service from the state and local governments. We have a long tradition in our state of supporting gun rights and the hunting industry in Michigan and I would continue to support that tradition as Governor.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  2. #2
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Anyone see this coming?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  3. #3
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    I saw that a while ago. This is BS. I am absolutely against any type of “signage=force of law” law. Snyder must think that so many people want SB59 that he can put anything in he wants and it will pass.

    No.

    Dan

    P.S. also Snyder is an asshat with his typical FUDD "gun rights and the hunting industry." NO ONE HAS HUNTING RIGHTS!
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: SB 59 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    From MCRGO



    IMO this bill has little to no chance. The last thing I ever want to see in Michigan is giving places the option of posting an enforceable "no guns" sign. It is my belief that if given the option, you will see them everywhere! Don't believe me drive to Ohio.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/governor/...un_Control.htm I like how according to this Rick supports the right of citizens with permits to carry. What a joke!
    Looks like "pragmatism" is working out so well. Does this surprise anyone? But, I guess I'm just wondering if because we rolled over once, the expectation is that we will do so again. OC is dying before our eyes. So, where do the Open Carry organizations in this state stand with this game changer? I can't wait to see the logic that will be used to support this.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Looks like "pragmatism" is working out so well. Does this surprise anyone? But, I guess I'm just wondering if because we rolled over once, the expectation is that we will do so again. OC is dying before our eyes. So, where do the Open Carry organizations in this state stand with this game changer? I can't wait to see the logic that will be used to support this.
    They're against any type of signage a public PFZ may be able to post. As it spits in the face of preemption.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: SB 59 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    They're against any type of signage a public PFZ may be able to post. As it spits in the face of preemption.
    Who...MOC.... MCRGO.... both? It's getting hard to tell the difference. Btw, there is a huge difference between a private entity posting under the general Trespass statute and enshrining the posting of signs in the CPL law.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-10-2012 at 08:24 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: SB 59 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    They're against any type of signage a public PFZ may be able to post. As it spits in the face of preemption.
    Actually no. This would be state law and is not affected by preemption.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  8. #8
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    there is a huge difference between a private entity posting under the general Trespass statute and enshrining the posting of signs in the CPL law.
    Not sure what you mean. Since preemption exists, part A and part B of your sentence are the same thing.

    For myself, I am strictly against "signage=force of law." That is a huge thing. There are some who believe in absolute liberty and support this, but I do not. Public accommodations have certain restrictions, and just as prohibiting Jews or blacks is not allowed, many fine legal minds believe that would extend to not being able to prohibit firearms carry for personal protection as well. It just has not been litigated properly in the right places.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  9. #9
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    While I am essentially avoiding this mess of a forum for the time being, let me make this much clear. The point on Ohio, and indeed other states, such as Texas, is a good one. Even Arizona, the posterchild for gun freedom has a system where local government owned buildings can prohibit guns, and none of these places are taking a serious look at reversing that. We do NOT want that. This is essentially attempted castration of our rights. The tough nerd has turned into an audacious tyrant.

    The Governor is not a king, and he needs to understand that gun carriers aren't willing to play his games any more than they're willing to give into Dianne Fienstien. Accordingly, this bill needs to die. If you value either OCing or CCing, contact your reps NOW, by email, then by phone tomorrow, and ask them to kill this bill. It would appear that the best we can hope for for the next 2 or 6 years is a stalemate.
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-10-2012 at 09:09 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Thumbs up This!

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I saw that a while ago. This is BS. I am absolutely against any type of “signage=force of law” law. Snyder must think that so many people want SB59 that he can put anything in he wants and it will pass.

    No.

    Dan

    P.S. also Snyder is an asshat with his typical FUDD "gun rights and the hunting industry." NO ONE HAS HUNTING RIGHTS!
    +1 Amen Brother! Could not have said it better!
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #11
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Who...MOC.... MCRGO.... both?
    from MCRGO-

    MCRGO nor MOC will support legislation that would compromise state preemption in local public units. We'd rather have the bill die than for that to occur. So would Sen. Green. If that happens, there will be a lot more of us open carrying in PFZs in the near future. It's tough for me as I prefer to pocket carry.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  12. #12
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    from MCRGO-

    MCRGO nor MOC will support legislation that would compromise state preemption in local public units. We'd rather have the bill die than for that to occur. So would Sen. Green. If that happens, there will be a lot more of us open carrying in PFZs in the near future. It's tough for me as I prefer to pocket carry.
    Has MOC announced that as well?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  13. #13
    Regular Member ken243's Avatar
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    So, what did we learn? DO NOT compromise, it will never end.
    Person in Home Depot: "Do you really think you need that?"
    Me: "I hope not. But then again, I didn't need my seatbelt on the way here either."

  14. #14
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Has MOC announced that as well?
    I assume you are not on the MOC legislative alert email list. Here is part of the most recent one:

    There's a lot of unknowns right now. After House/Senate leadership have met with Snyder's office 3 times, there is still no solid deal. We may end up at a place where we have to give up on SB 59 this session because Snyder (517.373.3400) is simply asking for too much and will veto any bill that is worth passing.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    from MCRGO-

    MCRGO nor MOC will support legislation that would compromise state preemption in local public units.
    I think it's ironic that this bill would have spat on our brain child, OCing, and now the governor is attempting to reach out and spit on MCRGO's glorious brain child, the preemption law.

    I would certainly hope at this point, or at least when Snyder vetoes the bill under these demands, that MCRGO would do a 180, otherwise I do believe we would know for certain that whatever is left of MCRGO had completely gone nuts.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Has MOC announced that as well?
    I'm not sure, I was on the MCRGO page not MOC's. It appears as though they are either going to let it die or pass it as is and let snyder pocket veto it. considering snyder has pissed of the anti-tax people, the unions and now gun owners, i think it's safe to say he knows he is a 1 term governor. The unfortunate thing is I really don't think he cares, he accomplished most of his goals in his first 2 years.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  17. #17
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Who do you mean by "they" as in they are going to let it die? The legislators?

    Mike Green has committed to not let this bill become a gun control bill. He would torpedo his own bill before that happens.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  18. #18
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Who do you mean by "they" as in they are going to let it die? The legislators?

    Mike Green has committed to not let this bill become a gun control bill. He would torpedo his own bill before that happens.
    yes, the legislators.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    What are the chances of getting enough votes to over ride a veto?
    remember how it was suppose to pass last week then it was mysteriously moved to this week, that was to allow a pocket veto. by passing it this week there is not enough time to override a veto, if they passed it last week they would have had the chance. to quote the dems- "they've panned this all along, we've been lied to the whole way"
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  19. #19
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    MOC on facebook

    "Friends:

    I am sad to report that we hear today's meeting with Rick Snyder (The Governor) about SB 59 wasn't as fruitful as we desired. Rumor is that Snyder is making demands that are unreasonable that both MOC and its legislative allies find unacceptable. I hear Snyder would like to give public and private property that are currently “pistol free zones” (K-12 schools, day cares, churches, stadium
    s, movie theaters, bars, hospitals, college dorms/classrooms) the ability to post signs banning guns that have the force of trespass law.

    Philosophically, we don't have a problem with private property owners being able to control their own private property, if the property is properly posted in a painfully visible manner at every public entrance. We DO have a problem with publicly owned/operated "stadium authorities", schools, and universities regulating firearms. These concepts spit in the face of preemption.

    The Bill's Sponsor, Senator Mike Green has committed to not let this bill become a gun control bill. He would torpedo his own bill before that happens.

    Sources tell me Senator Green and House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Frank Foster have had several conversations today and rumor is they've come to a compromise they can both agree on (I don't have the details at this time). It's unclear if the Governor will be willing to sign their package or if he'll let it slide into the pocket. I'm told by Representative Foster he expects to have SOMETHING heard in committee on Wednesday (click for meeting time/location). Whether that is something MOC and/or our allies will be able to get behind remains to be seen. More details won't be known by the leadership of MOC until late tomorrow.

    There's a lot of unknowns right now. After House/Senate leadership have met with Snyder's office 3 times, there is still no solid deal. We may end up at a place where we have to give up on SB 59 this session because Snyder (517.373.3400) is simply asking for too much and will veto any bill that is worth passing. The shorts of it is, Snyder is the current road block in the process and doesn't appear to care too much about us (people who take responsibility for our own personal protection by carrying firearms).

    If you're interested in participating in the process, come to the committee meeting on Wednesday. Other than that, "stay tuned" and I might have more information tomorrow evening.

    Tirelessly fighting for liberty,

    Phillip Hofmeister
    President
    Michigan Open Carry, Inc."
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  20. #20
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    What are the chances of getting enough votes to over ride a veto?
    From what I have been told, zero. If Snyder backs out then enough legislators will also back out (half a dozen or so) so that we will not have a veto-proof majority. There are enough people that believe Snyder is the CEO of the state and should get what he wants.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: SB 59 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    From what I have been told, zero. If Snyder backs out then enough legislators will also back out (half a dozen or so) so that we will not have a veto-proof majority. There are enough people that believe Snyder is the CEO of the state and should get what he wants.
    Many right here on OCDO.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  22. #22
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Many right here on OCDO.
    That, too, is incorrect.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  23. #23
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    "Friends:

    I am sad to report that we hear today's meeting with Rick Snyder (The Governor) about SB 59 wasn't as fruitful as we desired. Rumor is that Snyder is making demands that are unreasonable that both MOC and its legislative allies find unacceptable. I hear Snyder would like to give public and private property that are currently “pistol free zones” (K-12 schools, day cares, churches, stadium
    s, movie theaters, bars, hospitals, college dorms/classrooms) the ability to post signs banning guns that have the force of trespass law.

    Philosophically, we don't have a problem with private property owners being able to control their own private property, if the property is properly posted in a painfully visible manner at every public entrance. We DO have a problem with publicly owned/operated "stadium authorities", schools, and universities regulating firearms. These concepts spit in the face of preemption.

    The Bill's Sponsor, Senator Mike Green has committed to not let this bill become a gun control bill. He would torpedo his own bill before that happens.

    Sources tell me Senator Green and House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Frank Foster have had several conversations today and rumor is they've come to a compromise they can both agree on (I don't have the details at this time). It's unclear if the Governor will be willing to sign their package or if he'll let it slide into the pocket. I'm told by Representative Foster he expects to have SOMETHING heard in committee on Wednesday (click for meeting time/location). Whether that is something MOC and/or our allies will be able to get behind remains to be seen. More details won't be known by the leadership of MOC until late tomorrow.

    There's a lot of unknowns right now. After House/Senate leadership have met with Snyder's office 3 times, there is still no solid deal. We may end up at a place where we have to give up on SB 59 this session because Snyder (517.373.3400) is simply asking for too much and will veto any bill that is worth passing. The shorts of it is, Snyder is the current road block in the process and doesn't appear to care too much about us (people who take responsibility for our own personal protection by carrying firearms).

    If you're interested in participating in the process, come to the committee meeting on Wednesday. Other than that, "stay tuned" and I might have more information tomorrow evening.

    Tirelessly fighting for liberty,

    Phillip Hofmeister
    President
    Michigan Open Carry, Inc."
    This changes everything.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    It is time for open carriers, MOC, all other gun owner organizations in Michigan, and all other gun owners to now realize a lesson you should have known all along!

    NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM COMPROMISE OR "PLAYING NICE" IN SECURING GUN RIGHTS.

    THE ATTITUDE MUST BE ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

    We do not compromise OC'ers, we do not compromise CC'ers, we do not compromise home defenders, we do not compromise hunters, we do not compromise sport shooters, we do not compromise ANY GUN OWNERSHIP, ANY GUN POSSESSION, OR ANY GUN CARRY!
    Last edited by DanM; 12-10-2012 at 11:15 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: SB 59 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    that, too, is incorrect.
    lol
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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