Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: No Compromise Has Always Been True and Always Will Be

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    No Compromise Has Always Been True and Always Will Be

    We told you nothing good comes from attempting to compromise. Dealing with Gov Snyder is like dealing with the devil, and the SB 59 debacle continues to prove it.

    It is time for open carriers, MOC, all other gun owner organizations in Michigan, and all other gun owners to now realize a lesson you should have known all along!

    NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM COMPROMISE OR "PLAYING NICE" IN SECURING GUN RIGHTS.

    THE ATTITUDE MUST BE ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

    We do not compromise OC'ers, we do not compromise CC'ers, we do not compromise home defenders, we do not compromise hunters, we do not compromise sport shooters, we do not compromise ANY GUN OWNERSHIP, ANY GUN POSSESSION, OR ANY GUN CARRY!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  2. #2
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    I am going to withhold comment until after I attend the Wednesday morning legislative session, but from what I am seeing now in this case you may be right.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I am going to withhold comment until after I attend the Wednesday morning legislative session, but from what I am seeing now in this case you may be right.
    Compromise does nothing but chip away at OUR rights!

    Anti-gunners see compromise as weakness, and they will take what you are compromising and demand more!

    That is a lesson that is plain to see by anyone who has been around gun-rights advocacy for the past couple of decades. Sadly, it is evident some people and some gun organizations are ignorant of history, but instead allow Governor Snyder to demonstrate it to them YET AGAIN.

    No, it is not that gun owners are their own worst enemy. It is ignorance or amnesia about history that is some gun owners and gun-rights organization's problem.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-10-2012 at 11:55 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: No Compromise Has Always Been True and Always Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    We told you nothing good comes from attempting to compromise. Dealing with Gov Snyder is like dealing with the devil, and the SB 59 debacle continues to prove it.

    It is time for open carriers, MOC, all other gun owner organizations in Michigan, and all other gun owners to now realize a lesson you should have known all along!

    NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM COMPROMISE OR "PLAYING NICE" IN SECURING GUN RIGHTS.

    THE ATTITUDE MUST BE ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

    We do not compromise OC'ers, we do not compromise CC'ers, we do not compromise home defenders, we do not compromise hunters, we do not compromise sport shooters, we do not compromise ANY GUN OWNERSHIP, ANY GUN POSSESSION, OR ANY GUN CARRY!
    Dan, I've tried, you've tried, and others have too. They don't listen. The personal attacks continue while all around the house of cards is falling down. Just putting the last few nails in the OC coffin with a hammer supplied by people here. If somehow the Governor's desire is not made law perhaps OC can be resurrected. But, I expect more assaults over the coming years. I will bow out of posting publicly on OCDO for a while and do what I can with like minded individuals to attempt to stem the assault on OC. However, those people can't be found here. I had a very prescient person who was once quite active here state his belief that there were some here who were "agent provacatour" (sp) I didn't believe it at the time but, if he sees this now...you were right!

    To all who have taken personal offence at what I've written, none was intended. Sometimes I underestimate the naivete of others and really, I shouldn't fault them. I assume that they did what they thought right at the time. No, this was done by design orchestrated by a few individuals.

    If you have any suggestions on stopping the tide, pm me. But, it is pointless to post here and expect more than a few diehard souls to actually see what has happened. To me, it is a very sad moment in the annals of OC.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-11-2012 at 12:45 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Be a Chamberlain or be a Churchill .... I prefer Churchill ...

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    290
    Good post DanM. Hopefully this is a lesson to all of us, provided the powers that be cease purging all discussions that have documented the very organizations that helped push in this Trojan Horse. I fear this lesson will be erased from history by a conflict of interest.
    Last edited by kubel; 12-11-2012 at 02:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    576
    NO Trade off's, NO Compromise, you do NOT, & I will not give away any Gun / firearm rights away for the sake of Compromise.
    This bill SB59 or any other Firearm bill that requires any of us to trade/give away a right is not & or will never be on the table for discussion by me.

    I will never support a bill or ORG that wants to trade off my RIGHT'S.

    The people that read this forum, & all Proguner's had best wake up !
    Any time you have to pay for a right, it is a Government Privilage!

    And as far as the other Org's they NEVER supported Open Carry in the beginning, & belittled, argued, cryed, complained, etc... Yet I am being told that we are supporting this bill, so they will support open carry later, I say bull !

    Sounds like Politic's to me, Nothing good ever came out of Compromising your right's.......................

  8. #8
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Wild Wild West Michigan
    Posts
    1,188
    But remember that was a "loop hole"

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    Nothing was stopping CPL holders from carrying in those areas before the law was changed. Residents just chose not to become educated about, and those who did, for the most part, refused to exercise their rights. As a result, a new gun control bill has been introduced, and will likely be signed into law.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  9. #9
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Wild Wild West Michigan
    Posts
    1,188
    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    If it was a loophole, it was one spelled out clearly by the Michigan State Police.

    I maintain, that it was in the power of the legislature to pass the laws the way they chose to, and that's what they did. Therefore, no loophole.
    Not according to MOC
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    576

    New Org needed ? I am starting to wonder ? Time for a change ?

    New Org needed ?
    One that let's the members vote on all issues outside of normal operating issues.
    Taking Stands on Issues, Supporting Bills, etc.... should be voted on by the members !
    Was this done, ?
    This is all I am going to say on this issue.....

    What happened to the Original Open Carry Group ?
    Where have they all gone ?
    Why did they leave, resign, quit, refuse to renew their memberships ?

    I know the answer's & most of the old timers know also, the orginal ones that started this group, we all know !

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    IMOP many did the following. NOTE if this does not apply to you as an individual (whoever you may be) then I am not talking about you.

    They took their ball and went home when they did not get their way on everything. Every group I have ever belonged to has had this happen... and to be honest to be part of a group you have to expect not everything will be to your liking all the time. Not to mention even if a group solicited a vote every time something came up they would still only get the same small number of people voting every time. Those people would be the ones that take the time to volunteer their time and be involved in the running of the group.

    I have been involved since 2008... and have seen people come and go for many different reasons however the above reason was the most prevalent.
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 12-12-2012 at 01:49 PM.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    576
    Autosurgen, You and I both & many others know why I left, we also know why many others left, becouse of the BS that went on.
    And the sad part is that it still goes on in MOC & OCDO sites. If certain people wound stop playing games, Moc would grow. The fox is in the hen house !

    But hence I am not a MOC Member.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    IMOP many did the following. NOTE if this does not apply to you as an individual (whoever you may be) then I am not talking about you.

    They took their ball and went home when they did not get their way on everything. Every group I have ever belonged to has had this happen... and to be honest to be part of a group you have to expect not everything will be to your liking all the time. Not to mention even if a group solicited a vote every time something came up they would still only get the same small number of people voting every time. Those people would be the ones that take the time to volunteer their time and be involved in the running of the group.

    I have been involved since 2008... and have seen people come and go for many different reasons however the above reason was the most prevalent.
    Wow!

    What a complete misrepresentation ( )

    I warned people about this years ago when I left because I saw the train coming. It isn't like this is a surprise.

    Right, "People were acting like children just because they didn't want to be a party to all the personal attacks and cyber bullying that this group is so well known for." I suppose it's also childish to not want to be involved with a group that as a whole is more interested in winning people over by using a hammer than a spoon.

    Here's a word:

    Gaslighting
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-12-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: removed phrases due to Rule violation... nothing personal

  14. #14
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Erie, MI
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    If it was a loophole, it was one spelled out clearly by the Michigan State Police.

    I maintain, that it was in the power of the legislature to pass the laws the way they chose to, and that's what they did. Therefore, no loophole.
    May be, and an AG opinion too, but I seem to recall a sitting Judge stating that OC in PFZ's was "absurd". All it takes is that one Judge presiding over your case and you are screwed. MSP Updates and AG Opinions are NOT laws.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: No Compromise Has Always Been True and Always Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Wow!...
    Good to see you are part of the conversation, ghostrider. PM me sometime.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-12-2012 at 04:44 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  16. #16
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    Nothing was stopping CPL holders from carrying in those areas before the law was changed. Residents just chose not to become educated about, and those who did, for the most part, refused to exercise their rights. As a result, a new gun control bill has been introduced, and will likely be signed into law.
    How did Open carry in a school (w/CPL) work out for you Neil?

    Example: My local movie theater is a PFZ because of the seating capacity, If I were to open carry there
    I will be asked to leave. And that's their right as its private property.

    If SB59 passed I could carry in these places discreetly and nobody but myself would need to know.
    I wouldn't be asked to leave, no hassle from MWAG calls to the police.

    300,000+ CPL holders would have an option to carry in more places
    I myself will definitely be carrying in a lot more places then I did before.

    And If I want to Open Carry outside of the PFZ's, I still can

    Just My Opinion
    Last edited by DetroitBiker; 12-12-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Good to see you are part of the conversation, ghostrider. PM me sometime.
    Don't worry, it won't last long. Check your PM's. I already did, and I'll send another one.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Wow!

    What a complete misrepresentation ( )

    I warned people about this years ago when I left because I saw the train coming. It isn't like this is a surprise.

    Right, "People were acting like children just because they didn't want to be a party to all the personal attacks and cyber bullying that this group is so well known for." I suppose it's also childish to not want to be involved with a group that as a whole is more interested in winning people over by using a hammer than a spoon.

    Here's a word:

    Gaslighting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

    +many. What is truly sad is how many staunch OC supporters have chosen to leave MOC, not because of their policies or their decisions, but because they don't want to be associated with of the kind of behavior mentioned by ghostrider.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  19. #19
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    I warned people about this years ago when I left because I saw the train coming. It isn't like this is a surprise.
    I wasn't here (or at MOC) yeas ago. I've only been around for a year or so. Doesn't the board have a different make-up now than two years ago? Maybe a few are the same, like the IT director, but some of the most prominent positions are new, like President and VP, aren't they?

    What happened years ago that was so bad? Feel free to PM if necessary. Thanks.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids
    Posts
    1,018
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I wasn't here (or at MOC) yeas ago. I've only been around for a year or so. Doesn't the board have a different make-up now than two years ago? Maybe a few are the same, like the IT director, but some of the most prominent positions are new, like President and VP, aren't they?

    What happened years ago that was so bad? Feel free to PM if necessary. Thanks.
    Oh, good, its not just me. Not sure what all the bad juju that's going around is about.....seems like typical organizational behaviour to me.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Not on this website, USA
    Posts
    2,482
    Dan M and Dr. Todd hit the nail on the head with SB-59. I was shocked when I heard MOC was standing behind this legislation, and how many others were in support of it. Personally, I have not been OCing for some time now. Ghost is on point on why many people didn't want to associate themselves with others in MOC or here on OCDO.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I wasn't here (or at MOC) yeas ago. I've only been around for a year or so. Doesn't the board have a different make-up now than two years ago? Maybe a few are the same, like the IT director, but some of the most prominent positions are new, like President and VP, aren't they?

    What happened years ago that was so bad? Feel free to PM if necessary. Thanks.
    Not really a different make up. Different face, but same type of leadership. Nothings changed, you've just missed what it was like before all the personal attacks and so forth.

  23. #23
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Mundy Twp. Charter Member, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    374

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Not really a different make up. Different face, but same type of leadership. Nothings changed, you've just missed what it was like before all the personal attacks and so forth.
    Like

  24. #24
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Mundy Twp. Charter Member, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    374

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Not really a different make up. Different face, but same type of leadership. Nothings changed, you've just missed what it was like before all the personal attacks and so forth.
    like

  25. #25
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Mundy Twp. Charter Member, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    374
    NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM COMPROMISE OR "PLAYING NICE" IN SECURING GUN RIGHTS.

    THE ATTITUDE MUST BE ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

    We do not compromise OC'ers, we do not compromise CC'ers, we do not compromise home defenders, we do not compromise hunters, we do not compromise sport shooters, we do not compromise ANY GUN OWNERSHIP, ANY GUN POSSESSION, OR ANY GUN CARRY!
    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks Dan
    Last edited by CrossPistols; 12-12-2012 at 09:15 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •