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No Compromise Has Always Been True and Always Will Be

T Vance

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
2,482
Location
Not on this website, USA
Dan M and Dr. Todd hit the nail on the head with SB-59. I was shocked when I heard MOC was standing behind this legislation, and how many others were in support of it. Personally, I have not been OCing for some time now. Ghost is on point on why many people didn't want to associate themselves with others in MOC or here on OCDO.
 

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
I wasn't here (or at MOC) yeas ago. I've only been around for a year or so. Doesn't the board have a different make-up now than two years ago? Maybe a few are the same, like the IT director, but some of the most prominent positions are new, like President and VP, aren't they?

What happened years ago that was so bad? Feel free to PM if necessary. Thanks.
Not really a different make up. Different face, but same type of leadership. Nothings changed, you've just missed what it was like before all the personal attacks and so forth.
 

jeremiahJohnson

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
375
Location
fenton, Michigan, USA
NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM COMPROMISE OR "PLAYING NICE" IN SECURING GUN RIGHTS.

THE ATTITUDE MUST BE ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

We do not compromise OC'ers, we do not compromise CC'ers, we do not compromise home defenders, we do not compromise hunters, we do not compromise sport shooters, we do not compromise ANY GUN OWNERSHIP, ANY GUN POSSESSION, OR ANY GUN CARRY!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dan
 
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griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
Not really a different make up. Different face, but same type of leadership. Nothings changed

So the leadership from the first MOC president led by Venator, I think, through several presidents and vice presidents, and other officers, through today with TheQ and Yance, are all the same?

I was under the impression that was not the case.
 

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
I wasn't here (or at MOC) yeas ago. I've only been around for a year or so. Doesn't the board have a different make-up now than two years ago? Maybe a few are the same, like the IT director, but some of the most prominent positions are new, like President and VP, aren't they?

What happened years ago that was so bad? Feel free to PM if necessary. Thanks.
Faces may well have changed, but the legacy of that continues. In the end nothing has changed, the leadership (as well as the membership) still thinks it okay to campaigning in a negative manner instead of selling a good product on it's merits. Even today I was edited by the mods for calling someone out on the lies they spewed. Don't remember seeing the actual lies moderated.
 

T Vance

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
2,482
Location
Not on this website, USA
I haven't been on here in some time. I was just going through some of the posts and it made me realize what the tipping point was for me. It was when Ghostrider specifically said he didn't want HIS "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" affiliated with this website anymore. Certain individuals felt the need to STEAL it and repost it even when he asked nicely for them not to. John Pierce basically said, F.U., under the terms and agreements you agreed to to post on our website we can we what we want with it.

It also reminded how long gun OC was not permitted to be discussed on her and any time it was mentioned the thread was locked. Scrolling through the first page I see that locking threads is still a common occurrence when it comes to topics and ideas that other's don't agree with.
 

griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
I was just going through some of the posts and it made me realize what the tipping point was for me. It was when Ghostrider specifically said he didn't want HIS "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" affiliated with this website anymore.
Yet it was re-posted AGAIN here as recently as five months ago by MikeStilly himself. So I'm guessing MikeStilly didn't GAF about Ghostrider's wishes, either.
dunno.gif
 
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mastiff69

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
573
Location
Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
Just to clarify Venator did a good job, he steped down to do 2nd admin march, from then on MOC went down hill !
Now mr griffin your starting to get the drift ! post 30

You are starting to hear from some of the old Guard.

there are many of us, more than you are aware of, that left

Remember when i said read the old posts way back when, some are coming on hear to watch the shi* hit the fan etc...

Many that are posting are the ones that left, & when they come back they get attacked, we are part of the foundation & when we left, the building became weak as it is now........
The truth will set you FREE, may not make you popular :)
The sad part is if we all came back, the ones that left, the MOC Org would be a force to reckon with, but hence that would require transparncey & that will not happen, becouse that requires, releasing the rod & staff......
 
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Ezerharden

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
723
Location
Erie, MI
Just to clarify Venator did a good job, he steped down to do 2nd admin march, from then on MOC went down hill !
Now mr griffin your starting to get the drift ! post 30

You are starting to hear from some of the old Guard.

there are many of us, more than you are aware of, that left

Remember when i said read the old posts way back when, some are coming on hear to watch the shi* hit the fan etc...

Many that are posting are the ones that left, & when they come back they get attacked, we are part of the foundation & when we left, the building became weak as it is now........
The truth will set you FREE, may not make you popular :)
The sad part is if we all came back, the ones that left, the MOC Org would be a force to reckon with, but hence that would require transparncey & that will not happen, becouse that requires, releasing the rod & staff......

Old Guard? really? You use the name of an Honored Military Unit to describe yourself? You really do have a superiority complex. As to all of you coming back, seems to me that if you believed so strongly, you would never have left in the first place, or is it perhaps that the majority didn't see things as you do so you left because people would not bend to your desire?

Either way, MOC is what it is, if you don't like it, form another group. Either way, all your contentious comments bring little of value. You are becoming quite egotistical, arrogant, and I hate to say, childish because most do not march to the beat or your drum.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Faces may well have changed, but the legacy of that continues. In the end nothing has changed, the leadership (as well as the membership) still thinks it okay to campaigning in a negative manner instead of selling a good product on it's merits. Even today I was edited by the mods for calling someone out on the lies they spewed. Don't remember seeing the actual lies moderated.

Just want to put out there that I was the one who moderated the post; even though I understand ghostrider mentioning it and believe he means me no malice in doing so. However, I do think I need to explain why I did so as it does give a understanding of the problems happening here.

When I accepted the position of moderator along with a few others here, I accepted that in that role I needed to put my personal opinion aside. To that end, I have very rarely moderated anyone's post. My belief is that a person can express their point; who am I to try to control the conversation?

Today I was faced with moderating a post from someone for whom I have nothing but respect. I also believe he does not take the moderation personally and understands why I did so. But others may not. In a nutshell: heretofore agreed-upon rules were violated. I also thought that moderation could be done and still maintain the "meat" of the post. I did so with the desire that what was being stated remain as much as possible. Furthermore, I realized that there was the distinct possibility that the whole post could be eliminated by someone else along the line. I do not apologize for moderating the post, only that I was the one that did so. Hopefully all here understand that I do so knowing that some may see my actions as trying to stifle someone's opinion.

In regards to the conversations here on OCDO, I guess what bothers me most is the way things have transpired. There has always been a difference of opinions regarding a multitude of things said or done but, in the end we generally remained civil all the while knowing that we were all a part of something bigger. We were, for the most part, a group that despite what was discussed,we were steadfast in supporting Open Carry. That steadfastness has been, in my humble opinion, something that can no longer be assumed.

What I have seen is a group of people that, instead of arguing their case upon the merits of their arguments, attacking individuals for merely disagreeing .. or even for asking for an answer to some particular question. Like my moderation of the statement made by ghostrider, sometimes people who have been placed in either official or unofficial leadership positions can effect the stifling of dissent by placing personal gain above the task that they have willingly and voluntarily accepted: act in a manner representative of something much larger than themselves.

I believe that some have not realized that when speaking as a representative of a group (which we all here are to some degree) putting aside personal gain needs to remain foremost in their actions. Furthermore, even when putting out an opinion is done as an individual, personal attacks need to be avoided. Instead of attacking the person, attack the idea because to me, avoiding the actual question and instead, spending vast amounts of energy disparaging others only indicates that the person who does so realizes that they really have no argument.

Believe what you want but I harbor no ill-will against anyone here, despite what anyone may want so hard to believe. Just hoping that we once again can return to a time where disagreement was respected and we all remained true to Open Carry... irrespective of someone's personal issue with someone else.

Long live Open Carry!
 
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griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
What I have seen is a group of people that, instead of arguing their case upon the merits of their arguments, attacking individuals for merely disagreeing .. or even for asking for an answer to some particular question.

I guess I'd like to see some cites for your assertion. Maybe your memory is better than mine.
dunno.gif


Okay, I have seen some new (old) posters call SB59 supporters FUDDs, but other than that...
 

kubel

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
285
Location
, ,
I guess I'd like to see some cites for your assertion. Maybe your memory is better than mine.
dunno.gif


Okay, I have seen some new (old) posters call SB59 supporters FUDDs, but other than that...

Moderators felt it necessary to not only close, but also delete many of the threads that contained the most interesting quotes from people who should know better.

Anyway, it seems the demand for a new open carry organization in MI is strong. I would support such an organization with membership if they maintain the original MOC goals, but prioritize issues that I feel MOC is unable to- courtesy, respect, professionalism, no compromise. An armed society is supposed to be a polite society. I left MOC because of the abundance of condescending remarks. We can disagree, but not in a way to intentionally piss the other side off. ;)
 

mastiff69

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
573
Location
Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
Kubel this is what i have been trying to get thru to two of these posters, but all they have been doing is picking & attacking me & others.

So I am, so over trying to educate these newer guys. I think i will just let them flounder out here with no more insider help from me.
Good luck, & keep drinking the cool-aid mmmmm good !

When other people/posters are leaving this site, aka leaving the ship, I for one would wonder why ? BUT not these guys, I send them pm's with information & the tearing apart of the posts/ pm's continue, & they say all is well in OCDO/MOC right !!!!!

I am going to make sure that my stuff is tight & right, when it hits the fan don't come running to us, don't knock on my door !
Hell even sent a pm to one guy with pics of my other group pics & all he did was attack the pics, what a shallow person.
 
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HKcarrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
816
Location
michigan
If it was a loophole, it was one spelled out clearly by the Michigan State Police.

I maintain, that it was in the power of the legislature to pass the laws the way they chose to, and that's what they did. Therefore, no loophole. :)

I wholly disagree. Even the MSP state that their legal update is not binding to local LEOs... you could EASILY get hauled in for OC w/CPL... or have another Waterford situation... or worse.

May be, and an AG opinion too, but I seem to recall a sitting Judge stating that OC in PFZ's was "absurd". All it takes is that one Judge presiding over your case and you are screwed. MSP Updates and AG Opinions are NOT laws.


This.... either way, as discussed... money money money to defend.
 

quarter horseman

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
345
Location
Allegan co Michigan, USA
It's a sad thing to happen

I have not been a big deal here, but I have done my little part by OCing, gone to a few meet and eats ext. I started to wonder a long time ago when Mastiff took off what was going on, then gostrider went and now DrTodd? You are loosing good people with lots of useful information to the cause. I still do not know what this is all about, mainly because I stopped coming here due to the attacks and dumming down of people instead of giving useful information. I see it must still be the same and thats sad, more than a few have told me they dont come on this site because of this very reason and makes all of you loose.
 
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