Elderly hunter beaten to death with his rifle by ATV trespassing "kids"

Citizen said:

....
And, the comment about compelling a force-continuum is backwards. Nowhere did I say people should be required to give a warning shot. How did you turn that around?

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From this:

It totally knocks out a viable graduation on the scale of escalating force.

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If you want to codify a "scale of escalating force" then you are looking at compelling a continuum of force. While cops have such they seem to rarely get into trouble for "excessive force" until the excessiveness is egregiously so. Do I think that non-cops will get the same general pass? Not on your life!

As I noted, there is but a two-stage "scale of excalating force" in effect (in Virginia - keep OCforMe and his Missouri law out of it): 1) deadly force, and 2) everything else.

As for the useless comment that you are stuck with the law - perhaps I should have been less subtle and identified a change to that situation as your legislative project for the 2014 session.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

From this:


If you want to codify a "scale of escalating force" then you are looking at compelling a continuum of force. While cops have such they seem to rarely get into trouble for "excessive force" until the excessiveness is egregiously so. Do I think that non-cops will get the same general pass? Not on your life!

As I noted, there is but a two-stage "scale of excalating force" in effect (in Virginia - keep OCforMe and his Missouri law out of it): 1) deadly force, and 2) everything else.

As for the useless comment that you are stuck with the law - perhaps I should have been less subtle and identified a change to that situation as your legislative project for the 2014 session.

stay safe.

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But, there's not "everything else" if what you say is true. Warning shots and defensive displays are excluded according to your reports.

Perhaps instead of saying the force continuum, I should have said a force continuum.

I see and understand your point about legal recognition of warning shots and defensive displays becoming an obligation if formally recognized. I don't happen to agree that they would become obligations, but I agree the law could be perverted by a prosecutor or judge into an obligation.

In any event, I stick with my position. A defender is forced to shoot or die even in situations where a warning shot might have avoided the whole business. And, in situations where a defensive display might avert the need for shooting, the defender is forced to either shoot or retreat. This is just nuts.

This all assumes you are correct about the law. I say this for other readers who may not be keeping as close a track of our conversation; not to invalidate your report.

Citizen said:

.... This is just nuts.

....

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See? We really do agree.:lol:

And our two legal debaters head for a cup of coffe as the sun sets.

stay safe.

FireStar M40 said:

I'm of the firm belief that.. There's Nothing Wrong With A "Warning Shot".

It's quite simple and effective in its use and application under the right circumstances.

I'm "WARNING" you. Your continued aggressive actions toward me will result in you being "SHOT"!

That's my use of a "Warning Shot".

FireStar M40

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There is a very good reason not to fire a "warrning shot", law, or no law. That is, if the BG does not stop the bullet (that is you hit him, not a warning shot) what does stop the bullet?

My PERSONAL feelings on the matter, the weapon should not be displayed unless you are willing to use it. The trigger should not be pulled unless you are ready to use the BG as a bullet stop. If you "miss" (that is fire a warning shot...where, or in what, is that bullet going to stop). That is how the NYPD ended up shooting one BG and 9 bystanders. (Empire State Building incident)

So far, in 42 years of carry, my holstered OC pistol stopped one potentially bad incident, before it went to far, but other than cleaning and practice, it has never had to leave it's holster.

However, if my holstered pistol does not do the job, my unholstered pistol will...making as sure as is possible that nothing or no-one esle might possible be injured by a miss of the BG.

I am firmly against warning shots, legal or not. I will not tolerate being trespassed and threatened, or forced to change my lawful behavior, for unlawful behavior. They had already threatened him, he should have dropped them on their return, IMO he would have been justified. I had two incidents of trespass where I did draw on them. One took down a section of my fencing to take a shortcut across my property with a mobile home. Another was a hunter discharging a firearm just a few feet from my front door. Both decided to get combative when told to leave, both got the helll out quickly(ran) when I brought my 1911 to bear. Had either charged me I would have stopped them.