Bump firing... Legal or Illegal??? Better read the rules real close!

BlackHillsToday · Dec 11, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Is bump firing illegal? I've never heard of anyone calling it out until now.

When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire... based on one pull of the trigger. Even thought the compression and recoil are made by the weapon you and firing again, it is the gun that is simulating "Automatic Fire" and you and your gun are open to illegal issues... specially if law enforcement are the ones who hear it. In a few of the laws that I've read, about "defining Automatic" weapons, it doesn't say that it's a mechanism in the gun that cause the fire as much as the gun shooting "automatically" several rounds with one suppression of the trigger.. so I'm sure the court or jury would just say that you was intending to shoot "Automatically" because that was your intent. To bump fire, to create "Rapid Automatic Fire".. correct?

So, I still like shooting or demonstrating that at my home.. but it's really not all that cool.. However, I do think that the Gat-Triggers are Awesome! If you haven't seen those.. now that is a trip and totally legal, because each rep, creates and independent depression of the trigger, creating "Rapid Simi-Automatic Fire".. totally legal where permitted. (I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

--Moderator moved this post from the Michigan sub-forum --

Grapeshot · Dec 11, 2012

BlackHillsToday said:
When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire... based on one pull of the trigger. Even thought the compression and recoil are made by the weapon you and firing again, it is the gun that is simulating "Automatic Fire" and you and your gun are open to illegal issues... specially if law enforcement are the ones who hear it. In a few of the laws that I've read, about "defining Automatic" weapons, it doesn't say that it's a mechanism in the gun that cause the fire as much as the gun shooting "automatically" several rounds with one suppression of the trigger.. so I'm sure the court or jury would just say that you was intending to shoot "Automatically" because that was your intent. To bump fire, to create "Rapid Automatic Fire".. correct?

So, I still like shooting or demonstrating that at my home.. but it's really not all that cool.. However, I do think that the Gat-Triggers are Awesome! If you haven't seen those.. now that is a trip and totally legal, because each rep, creates and independent depression of the trigger, creating "Rapid Simi-Automatic Fire".. totally legal where permitted. (I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

--Moderator moved this post from the Michigan sub-forum --

Bump fire does not allow/cause the gun to fire multiple rounds with one "suppression of the trigger".

Think that this says it quite well:

"Bump firing is the act of using the recoil of a firearm to fire multiple shots in rapid succession. This process involves holding the foregrip with the non-trigger hand, releasing the grip on the firing hand (leaving the trigger finger in its normal position in front of the trigger), pushing the rifle forward in order to apply pressure on the trigger finger from the trigger, and keeping the trigger finger stationary. The firearm will recoil and then return to its previous position after the round has been fired first resetting and then pressing forward against the trigger thereby firing successive shots.

The relatively rapid bursts from semi-automatic firearms crudely simulate the discharge of automatic firearms. Even though a large number of rounds are fired in rapid succession, the trigger finger initiates each discharge; therefore, fully automatic fire is not actually taking place."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire

Fallschirjmäger · Dec 11, 2012

BlackHillsToday said:
When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire....

I'm thinking the gentleman may wish to acquaint himself with those laws again.

georg jetson · Dec 11, 2012

If he had posted the relevant statutes he may have read them himself and found the flaw in his definition.

Here's a relatively new product on the market that allows the shooter to be much more accurate than typical unassisted bumpfire... which is usually a complete waste of ammunition. Hard to hit the side of a barn while you're standing in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLt8-Wf7r0

I mention this because the manufacturer had sent a prototype to the BATF to have them make a determination about possible classification as a machine gun. The BATF sent a letter acknowledging this device required no registration.

davidmcbeth · Dec 11, 2012

Fallschirmjäger said:
I'm thinking the gentleman may wish to acquaint himself with those laws again.

Bump-ity, bump-ity, bump-ity all you want....1 round per bump

PavePusher · Dec 11, 2012

BlackHillsToday said:
When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire... based on one pull of the trigger. Even thought the compression and recoil are made by the weapon you and firing again, it is the gun that is simulating "Automatic Fire" and you and your gun are open to illegal issues... specially if law enforcement are the ones who hear it. In a few of the laws that I've read, about "defining Automatic" weapons, it doesn't say that it's a mechanism in the gun that cause the fire as much as the gun shooting "automatically" several rounds with one suppression of the trigger.. so I'm sure the court or jury would just say that you was intending to shoot "Automatically" because that was your intent. To bump fire, to create "Rapid Automatic Fire".. correct?

So, I still like shooting or demonstrating that at my home.. but it's really not all that cool.. However, I do think that the Gat-Triggers are Awesome! If you haven't seen those.. now that is a trip and totally legal, because each rep, creates and independent depression of the trigger, creating "Rapid Simi-Automatic Fire".. totally legal where permitted. (I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

--Moderator moved this post from the Michigan sub-forum --

"simulated" equals "not real". And that's where you probably should have stopped.

09jisaac · Dec 11, 2012

BlackHillsToday said:
(I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

So you go from talking about something that you think is illegal even though it has been ruled legal to wanting something that WOULD make your firearm an unregistered machine gun. Good idea!

Click to expand...

KYGlockster · Dec 11, 2012

BlackHillsToday said:
When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire... based on one pull of the trigger. Even thought the compression and recoil are made by the weapon you and firing again, it is the gun that is simulating "Automatic Fire" and you and your gun are open to illegal issues... specially if law enforcement are the ones who hear it. In a few of the laws that I've read, about "defining Automatic" weapons, it doesn't say that it's a mechanism in the gun that cause the fire as much as the gun shooting "automatically" several rounds with one suppression of the trigger.. so I'm sure the court or jury would just say that you was intending to shoot "Automatically" because that was your intent. To bump fire, to create "Rapid Automatic Fire".. correct?

So, I still like shooting or demonstrating that at my home.. but it's really not all that cool.. However, I do think that the Gat-Triggers are Awesome! If you haven't seen those.. now that is a trip and totally legal, because each rep, creates and independent depression of the trigger, creating "Rapid Simi-Automatic Fire".. totally legal where permitted. (I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

--Moderator moved this post from the Michigan sub-forum --

HAHA. You really need to go back and read the code in its entirety. Bump firing requires the trigger to be pulled every time a round is fired; the only difference in bump firing and regularly firing is that bump firing uses the recoil of the firearm to compress the trigger with no manual manipulation of the finger, while regular firing depends on the finger to compress the trigger manually without the assistance of the recoil. Bump firing is NOT illegal, nor does it constitute a full-auto firearm. For a firearm to be considered full-auto it must fire more than one round per trigger pull, which bump firing obviously cannot do.

I would suggest you check this out: http://www.slidefire.com/ I have one of these stocks on an AR of mine and I can get 700-900 rounds per minute from a semi-auto rifle. This stock is amazing, and it is APPROVED by the BATFE.

It really helps to read the definitions for a chapter when you are reading code or stautes. And, an electric gat trigger would be classified as an automatic weapon because you are not manually actuating the trigger by a mechanical action on your part. The gat trigger is legal because it still requires the user to manually depress the trigger, as does the Slide-Fire stock. Once you put an electric motor on it, then it becomes a restricted item.

Firearms Iinstuctor · Dec 11, 2012

I shot a Slide fire stock and watch others fire it. I couldn't tell the differants from that And the full auto M16s I used.

That side it if one wants to have fun and waste a lot of ammo and not hit any go for it.

I prefer nice aimed semi auto fire my self.

Gil223 · Dec 12, 2012

Enjoy it while you can...

Yes, Slide Fire Solutions produces a stockwhich achieves a similar effect for AR-15 rifles, and which is approved by the ATF. However... the ATF has reneged on such a determination before. In August of 2005 the Firearm Technology Branch of the ATF made the following determination:

"FTB has concluded that your submitted device is not designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun."

Based upon that "official" documented determination, Bill Akins Began production of the "Akins Accelerator". Though the BATFE initially approved the device, they later reversed this ruling, two years after they had approved it for sale. Bill Akins received no compensation, and was forced to surrender his devices and customer list to the ATF. The Feds giveth, and the Feds taketh away - including the privately owned (purchased) devices.

Good luck, and pax...

davidmcbeth · Dec 12, 2012

Gil223 said:
Yes, Slide Fire Solutions produces a stockwhich achieves a similar effect for AR-15 rifles, and which is approved by the ATF. However... the ATF has reneged on such a determination before. In August of 2005 the Firearm Technology Branch of the ATF made the following determination:

Based upon that "official" documented determination, Bill Akins Began production of the "Akins Accelerator". Though the BATFE initially approved the device, they later reversed this ruling, two years after they had approved it for sale. Bill Akins received no compensation, and was forced to surrender his devices and customer list to the ATF. The Feds giveth, and the Feds taketh away - including the privately owned (purchased) devices. Good luck, and pax...

he should have never kept customer lists, sales records etc ... he did a disservice to his customers

georg jetson · Dec 12, 2012

Gil223 said:
Yes, Slide Fire Solutions produces a stockwhich achieves a similar effect for AR-15 rifles, and which is approved by the ATF. However... the ATF has reneged on such a determination before. In August of 2005 the Firearm Technology Branch of the ATF made the following determination:

Based upon that "official" documented determination, Bill Akins Began production of the "Akins Accelerator". Though the BATFE initially approved the device, they later reversed this ruling, two years after they had approved it for sale. Bill Akins received no compensation, and was forced to surrender his devices and customer list to the ATF. The Feds giveth, and the Feds taketh away - including the privately owned (purchased) devices. Good luck, and pax...

Yes you're correct. The AA had a spring which acted as the forward force for the bump fire. The second determination of the BATF was that the spring actuated the trigger automatically. The Slidestock requires using your forward hand to maintain the forward force. It is less likely but not impossible that the BATF will reclassify the SS.

Gil223 · Dec 12, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
he should have never kept customer lists, sales records etc ... he did a disservice to his customers

Had he not done so, he would have lost his FFL at the first ATF inspection. Pax...

davidmcbeth · Dec 12, 2012

Gil223 said:
Had he not done so, he would have lost his FFL at the first ATF inspection. Pax...

he only needed to keep gun sales records ... the butts did not need to be recorded .. he should have sold them separately if he wanted to sell them together .. IMO

Gil223 · Dec 13, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
he only needed to keep gun sales records ... the butts did not need to be recorded .. he should have sold them separately if he wanted to sell them together .. IMO

Under the BATFE ruling of 2007, the Akins Accelerator qualified as "a part designed and intended…", which - technically - made Akins a de facto "machine gun manufacturer". As you probably know, the Registration and Transfer Record (ATF F 4473 (5300.9) PART I), requires full identification of the buyer, including name, address, citizenship status, etc.

The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and 27 CFR, Part 479
Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are:
· Machine guns;
· The frames or receivers of machine guns;
· Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;
· Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun;

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(Unrelated blah, blah, blah)
(2)(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

The Akins Accelerator was "a firearm frame…" that was "not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it was sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of". Akins was caught between the proverbial "rock and a hard place" that government regulations are so fond of providing/impeding small businesses. Pax…

Wally82 · Mar 20, 2013

bump firing is legal depending on how you do it.

ok so if you go to the company that makes the slide fire they have their letter from the batfe on the page for viewing. they address "bump firing" in it. basically as long as its not a mechanical part of the gun that does it for you its legal. therefor the slide fire in which you have to pull with your trigger hand and push with your forward hand is legal. if you put a spring in the stock to push forward for you that would be illegal bump firing. heres the letter from the batfe http://www.slidefire.com/downloads/BATFE.pdf

motoxmann · Mar 22, 2013

Wally82 said:
ok so if you go to the company that makes the slide fire they have their letter from the batfe on the page for viewing. they address "bump firing" in it. basically as long as its not a mechanical part of the gun that does it for you its legal. therefor the slide fire in which you have to pull with your trigger hand and push with your forward hand is legal. if you put a spring in the stock to push forward for you that would be illegal bump firing. heres the letter from the batfe http://www.slidefire.com/downloads/BATFE.pdf

I see this is your first post. welcome to OCDO! And that is a very useful first post indeed

Wally82 · Mar 22, 2013

motoxmann said:
I see this is your first post. welcome to OCDO! And that is a very useful first post indeed

Thank you much and I'm glad i could contribute to the conversation, even if it was a couple months after the previous post.

Marco · Mar 26, 2013

BlackHillsToday said:
When I read the laws, yes, bump firing is illegal, becasue it is simulated automatic fire... based on one pull of the trigger. Even thought the compression and recoil are made by the weapon you and firing again, it is the gun that is simulating "Automatic Fire" and you and your gun are open to illegal issues... specially if law enforcement are the ones who hear it. In a few of the laws that I've read, about "defining Automatic" weapons, it doesn't say that it's a mechanism in the gun that cause the fire as much as the gun shooting "automatically" several rounds with one suppression of the trigger.. so I'm sure the court or jury would just say that you was intending to shoot "Automatically" because that was your intent. To bump fire, to create "Rapid Automatic Fire".. correct?

So, I still like shooting or demonstrating that at my home.. but it's really not all that cool.. However, I do think that the Gat-Triggers are Awesome! If you haven't seen those.. now that is a trip and totally legal, because each rep, creates and independent depression of the trigger, creating "Rapid Simi-Automatic Fire".. totally legal where permitted. (I wish someone would make an electric Gat-trigger!)

--Moderator moved this post from the Michigan sub-forum --

You might want to look at the BATFE letter regarding the slide fire stock, you might learn something. FYI you don't need to pay a few hundred $ to slam fire.

Wow!!! If you think bump firing is illegal you must think the BMF activator and slam firing are extra illegal.
Oh noes, I can have "simulated" automatic fire.

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 26, 2013

He must have gotten the message, he has not returned since making that ill-advised and rather embarrassing post.

Bump firing... Legal or Illegal??? Better read the rules real close!

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