View Poll Results: Your level of OC protection?

Voters
33. You may not vote on this poll
  • I have never and will never support additional restrictions on OC.

    27 81.82%
  • I have supported additional OC restrictions before, but I've been enlightened and never will again.

    1 3.03%
  • I would consider supporting some additional restrictions on OC to obtain other gun rights.

    5 15.15%
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Thread: Don't be afraid to show your true colors about protecting OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Don't be afraid to show your true colors about protecting OC

    DrTodd said "I will bow out of posting publicly on OCDO for a while and do what I can with like minded individuals to attempt to stem the assault on OC. However, those people can't be found here."
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...12#post1864612

    Let's see. And I challenge everyone to post below how you voted.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  2. #2
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    "I have never and will never support additional restrictions on OC."
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    "I have never and will never support additional restrictions on OC."
    Ditto.

    ETA: Well crap, just noticed this is in the MI sub-forum. If this MI-centric, please delete my post and vote. Sorry.
    Last edited by FTG-05; 12-11-2012 at 02:23 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    DrTodd said "I will bow out of posting publicly on OCDO for a while and do what I can with like minded individuals to attempt to stem the assault on OC. However, those people can't be found here."
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...12#post1864612

    Let's see. And I challenge everyone to post below how you voted.
    I voted No to sb59 from the begining. I will never trust the government in anything they do, even if they offer me a a sweet gift.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    I would consider supporting some additional restrictions on OC to obtain other gun rights. I can not imagine the additional restrictions or other gun rights might be but I can't say I would never.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    I would consider supporting some additional restrictions on OC to obtain other gun rights. I can not imagine the additional restrictions or other gun rights might be but I can't say I would never.
    Appreciate your candor. Although you couldn't be described as an "OC advocate" then, you're some kind of "gun rights" person. If the trade-off involved minimal OC restriction in exchange for some huge general gun rights advancement, I would call such a person a "gun rights advocate". If the trade-off involved an exchange of OC rights for a minimal advancement in just the person's particular area of firearm carry or ownership, I would call such a person a "Fudd".

    I don't have a problem with "gun rights advocates" as long as they don't try to portray themselves as also an OC advocate, if they really would consider trading some of it away.

    I do have a problem with Fudds or people/organizations calling themselves OC advocates or having "open carry" in their name when they would support trading some OC away.

    If you support trading some OC away, you might be some other type of gun rights advocate, but you're not an OC advocate or organization. If "open carry" is in the org's name, the name should be changed to whatever it is that the organization really is defending. For example, Michigan Gun Owners wouldn't run into trouble doing a little compromising of OC, CC, hunting, sport shooting, or whatever for some big gain generally in gun rights, because their name doesn't reflect a particular thing they are trying to advance, except "gun owners".
    Last edited by DanM; 12-11-2012 at 05:03 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  7. #7
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Like I said I can't imagine such a compromise, and maybe I am not an OC advocate, I do OC, I am against SB59. I just won't say never.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Appreciate your candor. Although you couldn't be described as an "OC advocate" then, you're some kind of "gun rights" person. If the trade-off involved minimal OC restriction in exchange for some huge general gun rights advancement, I would call such a person a "gun rights advocate". If the trade-off involved an exchange of OC rights for a minimal advancement in just the person's particular area of firearm carry or ownership, I would call such a person a "Fudd".

    I don't have a problem with "gun rights advocates" as long as they don't try to portray themselves as also an OC advocate, if they really would consider trading some of it away.

    I do have a problem with Fudds or people/organizations calling themselves OC advocates when they would support trading some OC away.

    If you support trading some OC away, you might be some other type of gun rights advocate, but you're not an OC advocate or organization.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  8. #8
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Appreciate your candor. Although you couldn't be described as an "OC advocate" then, you're some kind of "gun rights" person. If the trade-off involved minimal OC restriction in exchange for some huge general gun rights advancement, I would call such a person a "gun rights advocate". If the trade-off involved an exchange of OC rights for a minimal advancement in just the person's particular area of firearm carry or ownership, I would call such a person a "Fudd".

    I don't have a problem with "gun rights advocates" as long as they don't try to portray themselves as also an OC advocate, if they really would consider trading some of it away.

    I do have a problem with Fudds or people/organizations calling themselves OC advocates or having "open carry" in their name when they would support trading some OC away.

    If you support trading some OC away, you might be some other type of gun rights advocate, but you're not an OC advocate or organization. If "open carry" is in the org's name, the name should be changed to whatever it is that the organization really is defending. For example, Michigan Gun Owners wouldn't run into trouble doing a little compromising of OC, CC, hunting, sport shooting, or whatever for some big gain generally in gun rights, because their name doesn't reflect a particular thing they are trying to advance, except "gun owners".
    So by your logic, does this make you, as anti CC, just an OC Advocate and not a Gun Rights Advocate? Personally I would prefer to be a Gun Rights Advocate working to advance all forms of carry, not just be narrowed down to one. For myself I OC and CC as the situation dictates as well as my method of carry, i.e. OWB, IWB, Shoulder Rig, etc.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  9. #9
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    So by your logic, does this make you, as anti CC, just an OC Advocate and not a Gun Rights Advocate? Personally I would prefer to be a Gun Rights Advocate working to advance all forms of carry, not just be narrowed down to one. For myself I OC and CC as the situation dictates as well as my method of carry, i.e. OWB, IWB, Shoulder Rig, etc.
    shoulder rigs are nice, though I get looks if I open carry with mine,
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  10. #10
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    shoulder rigs are nice, though I get looks if I open carry with mine,
    I have a nice horizontal rig I use for CC only as the muzzle points behind me and may frighten the sheep. Just ordered a nice vertical carry that would be more appropriate for open carry.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  11. #11
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I have a nice horizontal rig I use for CC only as the muzzle points behind me and may frighten the sheep. Just ordered a nice vertical carry that would be more appropriate for open carry.
    Mine is horizontal as well, nice Galco rig
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  12. #12
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Sure it can

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    My stance on the support of OC cannot be questioned.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    My stance on the support of OC cannot be questioned.
    Pretty strong words for a newbie. Stick around for a while before you embarrass yourself with words like that.

    73 posts in 2 1/2 years does not make a hardcore activist- there are a lot of veterans of the movement that paved the way for you, young 'un.
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 12-11-2012 at 08:35 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  14. #14
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    So by your logic, does this make you, as anti CC, just an OC Advocate and not a Gun Rights Advocate?
    I'm not anti-CC, let me clarify if my prior posts seemed to suggest that.

    I'm an "all the above" gun rights advocate. I will not support any additional restrictions on firearms nor their manufacture, sale, ownership, carry, etc. I will not support legislation that prohibits or criminalizes some of these things in order to achieve advancement in others. I support gun advocacy actions which are small, tightly focused, incremental, and free of compromise. That kind of action, like a needle versus a broad object, gets through easier and with no need for the "lubrication" of compromise to get a broad object through.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  15. #15
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I'm not anti-CC, let me clarify if my prior posts seemed to suggest that.

    I'm an "all the above" gun rights advocate. I will not support any additional restrictions on firearms nor their manufacture, sale, ownership, carry, etc. I will not support legislation that prohibits or criminalizes some of these things in order to achieve advancement in others. I support gun advocacy actions which are small, tightly focused, incremental, and free of compromise. That kind of action, like a needle versus a broad object, gets through easier and with no need for the "lubrication" of compromise to get a broad object through.
    Well that does clarify things some, however, I don't see where you will ever get a "zero" compromise gun bill through legislation. Just my observations.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

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  16. #16
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    First off, I think you telling Raggs he isn't an OC advocate was pretty condescending. Those are your definitions, I would certainly consider someone like Raggs who posts on OC forums, OC's, and works to promote OC an "OC advocate". But my opinion is worth no more than yours, so there is no point in debating that I suppose.

    But I do have a question for you, just for future reference. Let's play the hypothetical game- a bill has passed both houses, the governor is willing to sign in only if DanM says it's ok. The bill does the following-

    allows constitutional carry(offers optional FREE permit for reciprocity), adds BIG fines for preemption violations, removes all restriction on OC & CC in cars & in public. it eliminates registration(and demands destruction of records), allows private sales of all weapons, legalizes SBS, SBR's........but, the one catch is that no OC carry will be allowed in sports stadiums.

    do you tell the governor to sign that bill or veto it?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  17. #17
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Well that does clarify things some, however, I don't see where you will ever get a "zero" compromise gun bill through legislation.
    As I've indicated, tightly focused and incremental initiatives to remove 2A infringements do succeed without gun-rights compromise. A relatively recent example would be pistol "safety inspection" elimination and registration process reform. These are the beginning steps in what we'll eventually look back on as the successful incremental strategy that removed registration altogether, without compromising anyone's gun rights.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  18. #18
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    First off, I think you telling Raggs he isn't an OC advocate was pretty condescending. Those are your definitions, I would certainly consider someone like Raggs who posts on OC forums, OC's, and works to promote OC an "OC advocate". But my opinion is worth no more than yours, so there is no point in debating that I suppose.

    But I do have a question for you, just for future reference. Let's play the hypothetical game- a bill has passed both houses, the governor is willing to sign in only if DanM says it's ok. The bill does the following-

    allows constitutional carry(offers optional FREE permit for reciprocity), adds BIG fines for preemption violations, removes all restriction on OC & CC in cars & in public. it eliminates registration(and demands destruction of records), allows private sales of all weapons, legalizes SBS, SBR's........but, the one catch is that no OC carry will be allowed in sports stadiums.

    do you tell the governor to sign that bill or veto it?
    Firstly, my intention was not to tell DanM (his post was quoted not Raggs) anything, I was using the logic he put forth. After his response, it clarified things and made more sense to me. To me it is a non issue, and no harm meant or received.

    As to your proposed hypothetical bill, I am glad we are talking hypothetical because it is too much of a stretch for the reality of MI at the moment, however, I would likely consider that gaining a great deal with sacrificing one minor thing. Moot point for me though as I don't go to sports stadiums as it is

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    As I've indicated, tightly focused and incremental initiatives to remove 2A infringements do succeed without gun-rights compromise. A relatively recent example would be pistol "safety inspection" elimination and registration process reform. These are the beginning steps in what we'll eventually look back on as the successful incremental strategy that removed registration altogether, without compromising anyone's gun rights.
    I will grant those as valid points, but also rare points. This is the first real change to come along for carry laws since Shall Issue 10 years ago. And if you are referring to HB5225 with respect to registration it is RUMORED that there indeed was a compromise, background checks for private sales. This has not been officially announced yet so I am waiting to see what comes of it.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 12-11-2012 at 10:24 PM.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  19. #19
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I will grant those as valid points, but also rare points. This is the first real change to come along for carry laws since Shall Issue 10 years ago. And if you are referring to HB5225 with respect to registration it is RUMORED that there indeed was a compromise, background checks for private sales. This has not been officially announced yet so I am waiting to see what comes of it.
    I wasn't referring to HB5225, with respect to incremental registration reform. Was referring to what has already been put into law in the last couple of years. I agree with your point that compromise happens in a lot of gun legislation. I only make the case that compromise should not be supported, and instead what gun owners should support, if compromise on "big" bills are unavoidable, are small, incremental, tightly-focused bills or riders to other bills that don't involved compromise.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  20. #20
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I wasn't referring to HB5225, with respect to incremental registration reform. Was referring to what has already been put into law in the last couple of years. I agree with your point that compromise happens in a lot of gun legislation. I only make the case that compromise should not be supported, and instead what gun owners should support, if compromise on "big" bills are unavoidable, are small, incremental, tightly-focused bills or riders to other bills that don't involved compromise.
    I see your point, however as much as I wish your idea were the normal way, it sadly isn't yet. I hope I live long enough to see MI become the next Con Carry state.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  21. #21
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Firstly, my intention was not to tell DanM (his post was quoted not Raggs) anything, I was using the logic he put forth. After his response, it clarified things and made more sense to me. To me it is a non issue, and no harm meant or received.

    As to your proposed hypothetical bill, I am glad we are talking hypothetical because it is too much of a stretch for the reality of MI at the moment, however, I would likely consider that gaining a great deal with sacrificing one minor thing. Moot point for me though as I don't go to sports stadiums as it is



    I will grant those as valid points, but also rare points. This is the first real change to come along for carry laws since Shall Issue 10 years ago. And if you are referring to HB5225 with respect to registration it is RUMORED that there indeed was a compromise, background checks for private sales. This has not been officially announced yet so I am waiting to see what comes of it.
    quote failure on my part, my post was directed towards DanM, not you. sorry for the confusion.

    DanM- would love to hear your answer on the hypothetical bill I posted.
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 12-11-2012 at 11:36 PM.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Don't be afraid to show your true colors about protecting OC

    No worries DF


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  23. #23
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I see your point, however as much as I wish your idea were the normal way, it sadly isn't yet. I hope I live long enough to see MI become the next Con Carry state.
    Me too. Sadly the folks in the MI legislature are way behind the curve on their opinions of what the public can be trusted with. They only need to look at AZ to see what really happens when constitutional carry comes to large metro areas like Phoenix. Blood does not flow in the streets and gun crime is less than in the Detroit metro area. EVERYONE (law abiding citizens of the USA 21 and older)can carry cc or oc or both on or about their persons, in a car, in a Kroger/Fry's or Wal-mart. No cpl/ccw needed.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-11-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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  24. #24
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Pretty strong words for a newbie. Stick around for a while before you embarrass yourself with words like that.

    73 posts in 2 1/2 years does not make a hardcore activist- there are a lot of veterans of the movement that paved the way for you, young 'un.
    Kinda funny, but then again I am not a real OC advocate.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan
    Let's play the hypothetical game- a bill has passed both houses, the governor is willing to sign in only if DanM says it's ok. The bill does the following-

    allows constitutional carry(offers optional FREE permit for reciprocity), adds BIG fines for preemption violations, removes all restriction on OC & CC in cars & in public. it eliminates registration(and demands destruction of records), allows private sales of all weapons, legalizes SBS, SBR's........but, the one catch is that no OC carry will be allowed in sports stadiums.

    do you tell the governor to sign that bill or veto it?
    I'm happy to treat any hypothetical as a real case as long as the premises upon which it is based are at least plausible. In the real world, an event is both preceded by activity and followed by activity. In other words, there is a "before", "during", and "after" that may be relevant and important to discuss.

    Such is the case here. What is your premise for the "before" activity which led to the Governor having on his desk such an almost-utopian gun rights bill from the legislators, with the curious exception of the carve-out for OC in a sports stadium? Once you set this "before" premise, I'll be happy to start from there as we proceed through this exercise.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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