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Thread: Modifying justifiable homicide provisions.

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Modifying justifiable homicide provisions.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1012.pdf

    HB 1012 - 2013-14 prefiled bill regarding duty to retreat. I see a slippery slope on the horizon with regard to firearms used in self defense.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1012.pdf

    HB 1012 - 2013-14 prefiled bill regarding duty to retreat. I see a slippery slope on the horizon with regard to firearms used in self defense.

    ~Whitney
    I have never seen such a short and sweet law before...
    But (17) comes very close to a "duty to retreat" law... I dont like "duty to retreat"...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    If I feel myself or people I am with are in danger enough to draw my weapon. I'm shooting. Now if I see a situation and I am not involved and can avoid that situation, that will be first atempt and before I draw my weapon.

    I don't see how the phrase knows or should know can hold up. If I see one guy causing harm or with a gun. My assumption for saftey is that more people are around as well even if I can't see them. Retreat could actually put you in a worse position in some situations. How am I to know everything thats going on, and know or should know that it's the best option for my safety.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Washington State House Bill 1012 Introduced

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1012.pdf

    HB 1012 - 2013-14 prefiled bill regarding duty to retreat. I see a slippery slope on the horizon with regard to firearms used in self defense.

    ~Whitney
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1012

    Note it was just introduced today by Representative Appleton with no cosponsors from my understanding dems or anti-gun legislators do not have the numbers to push though such a bill.

    This bill would go against our Washington State Constitution and what is already in case law.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Contact info for the wonderful Democrat legislator:

    Rep. Sherry Appleton
    LEG 132
    FPO Box 40600
    Olympia, WA 98504-0600
    (360) 786-7934
    appleton.sherry@leg.wa.gov

    Why not call, write or type an email and let her know what you think about this attempt to infringe upon our right to self defense. I'm drafting a letter right now.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    http://www.examiner.com/article/oreg...lf-defense-law

    Ironically, a Washington State lawmaker has just pre-filed a bill to dramatically change the Evergreen State’s long-standing self-defense statute to require citizens to retreat from a threat before using lethal force to stop a potentially deadly attack. Democratic State Rep. Sherry Appleton (23rd District) wants to change the law to read, “Homicide shall not be justifiable under this statute if the slayer knows or should know that he or she could avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating.” This is House Bill 1012, and it may be read here.

    Appleton, from Poulsbo, did not return a call from Examiner.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Could somebody explain to me, at least in theory, from the libtard point of view, how such a law does anything other than protect a bad guy, or how it actually benefits "society?" I'm just trying to understand the (il)logic here.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Have you not heard? Guns are for LEOs and you should run and hide during an emergency.
    I do not do purple.

    I will send an email, a letter an I will call them in the morning. They think they are empowered now that obama is back.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Appleton's voting history seems to indicate that she is anti-all-things-gun.
    We'll just dub her bill the "Anti-Castle Act."
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    Appleton's voting history seems to indicate that she is anti-all-things-gun.
    We'll just dub her bill the "Anti-Castle Act."

    You give her too much credit. She'd probably think you mean she just doesn't like this guy:

    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1012.pdf

    HB 1012 - 2013-14 prefiled bill regarding duty to retreat. I see a slippery slope on the horizon with regard to firearms used in self defense.

    ~Whitney
    Without a corresponding State Constitutional Amendment being enacted to take away the right of the People to come to the defense of others, I do not see much chance of this bill surviving.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-12-2012 at 08:29 PM. Reason: removed answered sections
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    Without a corresponding State Constitutional Amendment being enacted to take away the right of the People to come to the defense of others, I do not see much chance of this bill surviving.
    This may be true, but please allow your proud representative (protector of evil) to know your views on her conduct. If we do not remind them when they act out, they will not know they do us an injustice.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    My what a delightful world she must live in to think this bill is a realistic option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by compmanio365 View Post
    Contact info for the wonderful Democrat legislator:

    Rep. Sherry Appleton
    LEG 132
    FPO Box 40600
    Olympia, WA 98504-0600
    (360) 786-7934
    appleton.sherry@leg.wa.gov

    Why not call, write or type an email and let her know what you think about this attempt to infringe upon our right to self defense. I'm drafting a letter right now.
    Letter sent. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1012

    Note it was just introduced today by Representative Appleton with no cosponsors from my understanding dems or anti-gun legislators do not have the numbers to push though such a bill.

    This bill would go against our Washington State Constitution and what is already in case law.
    It would definitely violate the constitution, BUT the way things are now, you would not be able challenge the law (if it were to pass) unless you shoot someone. Then the burden of proof is on you to prove that the law is in fact unconstitutional. The state claims that ALL laws are constitutional until PROVEN to be unconstitutional. I believe that to be bass ackwards. I BELIEVE that all laws are unconstitutional until the STATE can prove that they are.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This may be true, but please allow your proud representative (protector of evil) to know your views on her conduct. If we do not remind them when they act out, they will not know they do us an injustice.
    Not that Lib's Kirby or Ladenburg will be worth any more than a bad case of the runs, but letters have already been sent.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I received a reply. I was a bit confused by her answer, so I asked for a clarification. I will post it when she replys.


    Dear John,
    What the bill represents is if you are in a potentially dangerous situation and you have an avenue
    of retreat - you should take it. If you don't you can use your firearm to protect yourself and your family. These Stand your Ground laws have led to many senseless murders when there was an avenue to escape. I am just clarifying the statute.


    Sherry
    Representative Sherry Appleton
    Washington State House of Representatives
    23rd Legislative District
    360 786-7934
    360 697-2588
    Sent from my iPad


    Hello, I am Master Sergeant John Laigaie and I was appalled at the changes you wish to make to RCW 9A.16.050. This kind of run and hide thought is not in line with the thinking of the People of Washington. With the cutbacks on almost every service the State government is providing, you can no longer protect me or my family. Fewer emergency services, fewer law enforcement. More attempts at crime in my area. I do not wish to be disarmed or sent to jail or worse for protecting myself and my loved ones.
    Do not protect or empower criminals with this sort of legislation. Do not try to alter the Constitution of Washington State or the Republic. Do not waste my tax dollars on what will be a failed attempt in this endeavor.
    I would appreciate a reply to this email in order to understand your motivation in house bill 1012.
    Thank you for your time, MSG John Laigaie
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    ~~ snipped ~~ Dear John,
    What the bill represents is if you are in a potentially dangerous situation and you have an avenue
    of retreat - you should take it. If you don't you can use your firearm to protect yourself and your family. These Stand your Ground laws have led to many senseless murders when there was an avenue to escape. I am just clarifying the statute.


    Sherry
    Representative Sherry Appleton
    Washington State House of Representatives
    23rd Legislative District
    360 786-7934
    360 697-2588
    ~~ snipped ~~
    At least you got a prompt reply. Wife and I are still waiting a response from Representatives Steve Kirby, Connie Ladenburg, and we even wrote to Senator Steve Conway.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I have trouble with the "senseless murder" part. If I stand my ground, and I shall, I am NOT committing a murder. I am conducting an act of Self Defense.

    This type of "feel good" legislation is a waste of my tax money and it inflames the public.

    Now, did I stay home yesterday and hide my little pistol? NO, I went about my life as I do everyday. My Sweet Baboo and I went Shopping. You know the kind. We went to Ross, TJ Max, those kind of stores. Full (no,packed) of women shopping and dragging husbands behind. Only comment was while I was waiting in line to check out. I heard a guy behind me say "Hey, that guy is wearing a Gun!" other guy.."He must work here"..."He wouldn't be in line if he was working here"...."He looks OK, I don't have a problem with it"
    Keep Calm and Carry On. By being normal we will become normal. Most people support us in your endeavor.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Reply #2

    John,
    This explains the bill. If after this you still don't like the bill, feel free to come down to testify against it. I believe it is the right thing to do.

    “The current statute is very vague as to which situations can serve as justification for homicide; it technically allows a citizen to kill another to prevent the commission of any felony in his or presence, even when there was no human life or safety in jeopardy. This has never been the law in Washington, because Washington’s courts have always interpreted the statute to require that the homicide be committed to prevent the loss of human life or great personal injury. The changes in this bill with regard to the commission of a felony help match the statute up to the actual current law in Washington.

    As to the retreat requirement in this bill, a citizen would, under this bill, still be entitled to use deadly force to protect him or herself, his or her family, or anyone else in his or presence. However, if the citizen had a completely safe alternative to violence to prevent the confrontation or harm, the law requires the person to take that alternative instead of committing homicide.”


    This came this morning. I must thank her for her quick response.
    Now I must compose a calm and concise response when my opportunity to testify comes.

    I have a Mother and I am adult enough, for the most part, to take care of myself. I am offended that the rep thinks she has to legislate in my behalf, against my behalf. Confusing, eh? I guess I will have to tell her how I really feel.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    John,
    This explains the bill. If after this you still don't like the bill, feel free to come down to testify against it. I believe it is the right thing to do.

    “The current statute is very vague as to which situations can serve as justification for homicide; it technically allows a citizen to kill another to prevent the commission of any felony in his or presence, even when there was no human life or safety in jeopardy. This has never been the law in Washington, because Washington’s courts have always interpreted the statute to require that the homicide be committed to prevent the loss of human life or great personal injury. The changes in this bill with regard to the commission of a felony help match the statute up to the actual current law in Washington.

    As to the retreat requirement in this bill, a citizen would, under this bill, still be entitled to use deadly force to protect him or herself, his or her family, or anyone else in his or presence. However, if the citizen had a completely safe alternative to violence to prevent the confrontation or harm, the law requires the person to take that alternative instead of committing homicide.”


    This came this morning. I must thank her for her quick response.
    Now I must compose a calm and concise response when my opportunity to testify comes.

    I have a Mother and I am adult enough, for the most part, to take care of myself. I am offended that the rep thinks she has to legislate in my behalf, against my behalf. Confusing, eh? I guess I will have to tell her how I really feel.

    Oh but you misunderstand MSG. It isn't like that at all. She's not legislating on YOUR behalf, she's legislating on the BAD GUY'S behalf! After all, under the current law one of those poor, disadvantaged, oppressed people just getting their life back together might be senselessly murdered!
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Modifying justifiable homicide provisions.

    Can someone ask her for local examples of such senseless murders? Let's see some data, not anecdotes from out of WA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatswain View Post
    Can someone ask her for local examples of such senseless murders? Let's see some data, not anecdotes from out of WA.
    Seattle PD "BIRK"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    John,
    This explains the bill. If after this you still don't like the bill, feel free to come down to testify against it. I believe it is the right thing to do.

    “The current statute is very vague as to which situations can serve as justification for homicide; it technically allows a citizen to kill another to prevent the commission of any felony in his or presence, even when there was no human life or safety in jeopardy. This has never been the law in Washington, because Washington’s courts have always interpreted the statute to require that the homicide be committed to prevent the loss of human life or great personal injury. The changes in this bill with regard to the commission of a felony help match the statute up to the actual current law in Washington.

    As to the retreat requirement in this bill, a citizen would, under this bill, still be entitled to use deadly force to protect him or herself, his or her family, or anyone else in his or presence. However, if the citizen had a completely safe alternative to violence to prevent the confrontation or harm, the law requires the person to take that alternative instead of committing homicide.”


    This came this morning. I must thank her for her quick response.
    Now I must compose a calm and concise response when my opportunity to testify comes.

    I have a Mother and I am adult enough, for the most part, to take care of myself. I am offended that the rep thinks she has to legislate in my behalf, against my behalf. Confusing, eh? I guess I will have to tell her how I really feel.
    She has no understanding of the constitution of this state common law or even accepted law. I look forward to seeing what your reply is, but she has her blinders on.

    We are not a stand your ground state, we have the common law right upheld by our supreme court to not retreat from where you rightfully have the right to be. Maybe we should organize a trip down to testify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Seattle PD "BIRK"
    Hehehe I see what you did there.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Maybe we should organize a trip down to testify......
    I AGREE! I think a good number of us need to exercise our First Amendment rights to ensure keeping our Second Amendment rights.
    A good turnout would ensure the message. I have already requested information on when and where we go to testify. Info will be posted when available.

    You all carry a weapon every day. This is your opportunity to let the government know you do not want our Constitution bandied about. If you actually have to use your weapon, you do not need the possibility of prosecution haunting you. Stand up for your Rights.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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