Need help, looking for the best laws regarding OC

sha-ul · Dec 13, 2012

Greeting folks!
I was recently charged with the task of trying to find the best laws in the country regarding open carry, laws that might be used to pattern& model legislation off of.
Currently Ks law is mostly mute on the subject& by default allows open carry, but some municipalities have been ignoring, or trying to argue ambiguity in our state preemption law, because of this, My friend Marine 0300& the LPKS are working on suing the offending cities into compliance.
I however, am working on improving the anvil upon which Marine is forging, so as to apply the maximum return on his energy, therefore I am seeking out which states have the best laws for protecting the practice, while making it available to as many folks as possible. Currently there is no permit required for open carry, it is an option available to anyone 18+ with no criminal history, I would like to see it remain this way, as open carry IS constitutional carry.
I am also working on improving the preemption laws, as well to remove all wiggle room for the cities.

ETA: cross posted here> http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...regarding-OC&p=1865932&viewfull=1#post1865932

eye95 · Dec 13, 2012

The best laws on OC do not exist! You see, that which has not been specifically outlawed is lawful. So, wherever there are no laws regulating OC, it is legal.

Laws that specifically legalize OC are actually bad for OC. If OC is legal because a law has been passed, then the government has taken the right to OC and made it a privilege--and the People allowed it. For shame!

That which the government is allowed to give, it has been allowed to later take.

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sha-ul · Dec 13, 2012

eye95 said:
The best laws on OC do not exist! You see, that which is not outlawed is lawful. If there are no laws regarding OC, then OC is legal.

If OC is legal because a law has been passed, then the government has taken a right and turned it into a privilege, and the People allowed it! For shame.

That which the government is allowed to make legal, it can later outlaw.

That is all fine& the point is well made, however how does that strengthen the position of open carry in my state?

eye95 · Dec 13, 2012

cross post: Need help, looking for the best laws regarding OC

It is not a law on OC, but it can keep laws in a State from being a patchwork. It is called "preemption." States that have such a law prohibit localities from restricting ownership and carry any more than State law already does. The two States I have lived in most recently, Ohio and Alabama, both have preemption laws.

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sha-ul · Dec 13, 2012

Right now the biggest impediment to OC is the ambiguity in the preemption statute, Here is my suggested revisions

Chapter 12: Cities And Municipalities
Article 16: Miscellaneous Provisions
Statute 12-16,124: Firearms and ammunition; regulation by city or county, limitations. (a) No city or county shall adopt any ordinance, resolution or regulation, and no agent of any city or county shall take any administrative action, governing the Carry, purchase, transfer, ownership, storage or transporting of firearms or ammunition, ADD:knife, spray, stun gun, or other defensive arm, or any component or combination thereof. Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, any such ordinance, resolution or regulation adopted prior to the effective date of this 2007 act shall be null and void.

(b) Nothing in this section shall:

(1) Prohibit a law enforcement officer, as defined in K.S.A. 22-2202, and amendments thereto, from acting within the scope of such officer's duties;

DELETE: (2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one's person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public;

(3) prohibit a city or county from regulating in any manner the carrying of any firearm in any jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall; or

DELETE: (4) prohibit a city or county from adopting an ordinance, resolution or regulation requiring a firearm transported in any air, land or water vehicle to be unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm or any less restrictive provision governing the transporting of firearms, provided such ordinance, resolution or regulation shall not apply to persons licensed under the personal and family protection act.

(c) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, no person shall be prosecuted or convicted of a violation of any ordinance, resolution or regulation of a city or county which regulates the storage or transportation of a firearm if such person (1) is storing or transporting the firearm without violating any provision of the Kansas criminal code or (2) is otherwise transporting the firearm in a lawful manner.

(d) No person shall be prosecuted under any ordinance, resolution or regulation for transporting a firearm in any air, land or water vehicle if the firearm is unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm.

ADD: Except in cases of self defense, a city may regulate the discharge of a firearm, air rifle, or archery, in any place that there is a reasonable likelihood to result in serious harm to the general public, domestic animals, or property.

sha-ul · Dec 14, 2012

MKEgal · Dec 15, 2012

eye95 said:
The best laws on OC do not exist!

I disagree.
I think the best laws are ones which in effect say "this (city/county/state/country) recognizes that it's legal, it's a right, & nothing anyone can say or do will change that".

eye95 · Dec 15, 2012

I disagree.

That which a government believes it can grant, it also believes it can take away. If it is a right because they voted for it, they can take away the right simply by voting against it.

If it is a right, it needs no law; it needs no vote; it just is.

MAC702 · Dec 16, 2012

Of the three states with whose laws I am most familiar (AZ, NV, and UT); my vote would be NV.

UT does not allow a loaded chamber (on a public street) unless you have a permit.
AZ does not allow OC in a bar.

NV allows (by lack of law and state preemption) fully loaded OC almost everywhere, even though there are several public buildings and parks (notably in Clark County and City of Las Vegas and City of North Las Vegas) that illegally restrict it, but this is the fault of the law-breaking local governments, not the state, which has yet to implement a preemption law with penalties to the local governments that disregard it.

sha-ul · Dec 16, 2012

I had posted this in the other thread, so some of you may not have seen it.

Right now the biggest impediment to OC is the ambiguity in the preemption statute, Here is my suggested revisions

Chapter 12: Cities And Municipalities
Article 16: Miscellaneous Provisions
Statute 12-16,124: Firearms and ammunition; regulation by city or county, limitations. (a) No city or county shall adopt any ordinance, resolution or regulation, and no agent of any city or county shall take any administrative action, governing the Carry, purchase, transfer, ownership, storage or transporting of firearms or ammunition, ADD:knife, spray, stun gun, or other defensive arm, or any component or combination thereof. Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, any such ordinance, resolution or regulation adopted prior to the effective date of this 2007 act shall be null and void.

(b) Nothing in this section shall:

(1) Prohibit a law enforcement officer, as defined in K.S.A. 22-2202, and amendments thereto, from acting within the scope of such officer's duties;

DELETE: (2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one's person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public;

(3) prohibit a city or county from regulating in any manner the carrying of any firearm in any jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall; or

DELETE: (4) prohibit a city or county from adopting an ordinance, resolution or regulation requiring a firearm transported in any air, land or water vehicle to be unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm or any less restrictive provision governing the transporting of firearms, provided such ordinance, resolution or regulation shall not apply to persons licensed under the personal and family protection act.

(c) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, no person shall be prosecuted or convicted of a violation of any ordinance, resolution or regulation of a city or county which regulates the storage or transportation of a firearm if such person (1) is storing or transporting the firearm without violating any provision of the Kansas criminal code or (2) is otherwise transporting the firearm in a lawful manner.

(d) No person shall be prosecuted under any ordinance, resolution or regulation for transporting a firearm in any air, land or water vehicle if the firearm is unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm.

ADD: Except in cases of self defense, a city may regulate the discharge of a firearm, air rifle, or archery, in any place that there is a reasonable likelihood to result in serious harm to the general public, domestic animals, or property.

sha-ul · Dec 16, 2012

MAC702 said:
Of the three states with whose laws I am most familiar (AZ, NV, and UT); my vote would be NV.

UT does not allow a loaded chamber (on a public street) unless you have a permit.
AZ does not allow OC in a bar.

NV allows (by lack of law and state preemption) fully loaded OC almost everywhere, even though there are several public buildings and parks (notably in Clark County and City of Las Vegas and City of North Las Vegas) that illegally restrict it, but this is the fault of the law-breaking local governments, not the state, which has yet to implement a preemption law with penalties to the local governments that disregard it.

If you look in the KS subforum, you will see posts from Marine0300 describing the struggle to restore our right to loaded open carry, as many cities has flatly prohibited it, and the law suit to hammer the others into compliance.
Ks does allow concealed carry at least in bars, so long as you are not imbibing, I don't think that OC would be much different, but there is no law directly addressing that. There are some municipal buildings that prohibit carry, however some are sterile, with metal detectors& guards, others have nothing ore than a 8X8 vinyl sticker. You can see in the preemption statute that I posted above where they have the legal authority to regulate their own buildings.
On a related note, one state rep, now a state senator last session introduced a bill that would prohibit a govt building from being posted if they do not provide actual security.

Citizen · Dec 16, 2012

You can take a look at VA's pre-emption statute. 15.2-915.

It applies to localities and is worded pretty thoroughly.

sha-ul · Dec 16, 2012

Citizen said:
You can take a look at VA's pre-emption statute. 15.2-915.

It applies to localities and is worded pretty thoroughly.

this the one?

Commonwealth of Virginia said:
§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.
Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. However, no locality shall adopt any workplace rule, other than for the purposes of a community services board or behavioral health authority as defined in § 37.2-100, that prevents an employee of that locality from storing at that locality's workplace a lawfully possessed firearm and ammunition in a locked private motor vehicle. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101, from acting within the scope of his duties.
The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail, juvenile detention facility, or state-governed entity, department, or agency.
B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.
C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.
D. For purposes of this section, "workplace" means "workplace of the locality." .

F350 · Dec 16, 2012

If you want the "BEST" it is hard to beat Colorado

Article 2, section 13 of the State Constitution

Right to Bear Arms
The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

Nobody nowhere can do a blanket ban on OC, specific buildings (including government buildings) can ban OC by posting every entrance.

sha-ul · Dec 16, 2012

Well, in 2010 we reworded& reaffirmed article 4 in the KS bill of rights, the old wording was gutted in a KS supreme court ruling in 1905 that held it was a collective right, not an individual right.
Here is what we have now.

article 4 Kansas Bill of rights said:
4. Individual right to bear arms; armies. A person has the right to keep
and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and state, for lawful
hunting and recreational use, and for any other lawful purpose ; but
standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not
be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.''

This is a very strong provision in my opinion. But what can be done to make it stronger& proect these rights?

JoeSparky · Dec 16, 2012

F350 said:
If you want the "BEST" it is hard to beat Colorado

Article 2, section 13 of the State Constitution

Nobody nowhere can do a blanket ban on OC, specific buildings (including government buildings) can ban OC by posting every entrance.

Regarding your last statement: What about Denver County/City where OC in the entire City/County limits is prohibited?

Grapeshot · Dec 18, 2012

Two threads have been merged and those posts that were duplicate or nearly so have been deleted in an effort to clean this up.

Please note that OCDO does not permit "cross posting"

7) NO SPAMMING: Links to spam/membership sites not related directly to firearms are NOT allowed under any circumstances! It is also considered spamming to post the same thread (even valid ones) to multiple forums.

Need help, looking for the best laws regarding OC

sha-ul

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eye95

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sha-ul

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eye95

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sha-ul

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sha-ul

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eye95

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MAC702

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sha-ul

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sha-ul

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sha-ul

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