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Thread: Dangerous advice heard regarding carry w/o a permit

  1. #1
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    Dangerous advice heard regarding carry w/o a permit

    Someone suggested that one could carry without a permit under the condition that one is going to an approved range (example: blue trails (does anyone go there anymore?), citing 29-35 ...

    Before one takes that advice I suggest they read this section of CGS Sec. 29-38:

    Sec. 29-38. Weapons in vehicles. Penalty. Exceptions. (a) Any person who knowingly has, in any vehicle owned, operated or occupied by such person, any weapon, any pistol or revolver for which a proper permit has not been issued as provided in section 29-28 or any machine gun which has not been registered as required by section 53-202, shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than five years or both, and the presence of any such weapon, pistol or revolver, or machine gun in any vehicle shall be prima facie evidence of a violation of this section by the owner, operator and each occupant thereof.

    Don't do this in a motor vehicle ... unless you have 5 yrs to kill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You can transport, but you cannot carry.
    Wasn't this just covered a few months ago, "Carry v Transport in a Vehicle?

    If one needed a permit to transport, then how would FedEx deliver all those pistols, shotguns and rifles to the various gun stores in Conn?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-14-2012 at 09:13 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    It was actually discussed quite a long time ago in 2010: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...es-Pistol-Laws

    This included this informal opinion from Tpr. Thomas Hatfield Esq. of the DESPP Legal Affairs unit:

    June 8, 2010

    Re: Request for Answer

    Dear Mr. Redacted:

    Thank you for your recent question asking: "can a Connecticut citizen transport a firearm to a State
    licensed firing range for target practice in a locked container separate from the passanger [sic] dept.
    [sic]" With that question you attached a copy of the "statute and position". We note that you identified
    Conn. Gen. Stat. § 29-35 (Carrying of pistol or revolver without permit prohibited. Exceptions.) which
    reads in pertinent part:

    a person shall carry any pistol or revolver upon his or her person, except when such
    person is within the dwelling house or place of business of such person, without a permit
    to carry the some issued as provided in section 29-28. The provisions of this subsection
    shall not apply to ... any person transporting a pistol or revolver in or through the state
    for the purpose of... taking part in formal pistol or revolver training ... if such person is a
    bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or
    revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides ...
    For the purposes of this subsection, "formal pistol or revolver training" means pistol or
    revolver training at a locally approved or permitted firing range or training facility, and
    "transporting a pistol or revolver" means transporting a pistol or revolver that is
    unloaded and, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle, is not
    readily accessible or directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
    or, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle that does not have a
    compartment separate from the passenger comportment, such pistol or revolver shall be
    contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

    Please be aware that our office does not issue legal opinions to the public. This letter is not intended as a legal opinion, and nothing contained in this letter should be construed as such. Based on your question as well as our reading of Conn. Gen. Stat. § 29-35, we generally agree that the exception to transporting a handgun without a Connecticut handgun permit appears to include, with noteworthy limitations, the transportation of a handgun for the purpose of "formal Pistol or Revolver training".

    However, the statute does place significant limitations on many aspects of the transportation. For example, it limits the destination to which the handgun may be transported (i.e. a locally approved or permitted firing range or training facility), the manner in which may be transported [e.g. unloaded, not readily accessible, etc.), and by whom the handgun may be transported (e.g. a bona fide resident of the United States). We also note that the statute does not specifically define what constitutes "training".

    While you provided many examples as to what you considered to be training (e.g. "fire rounds at set
    distances", "site picture", "site alignment", "breath control", etc.), the examples given in your letter, as
    well as numerous others which immediately spring to mind, all are dependent on the entire facts and
    circumstances or any situation as a whole. As such, we cannot give you an answer to any particular
    hypothetical situation as to what may be statutorily considered "training" (formal or otherwise). We
    therefore suggest you consult with an appropriate attorney to discuss particular hypothetical situations
    with respect to Conn. Gen. Stat. § 29-35.

    RESPONSE OF

    Tpr. Thomas Hatfield Esq.
    Connecticut Department of Public Safety
    Legal Affairs Unit
    Connecticut Carry is dedicated to advancing and protecting the fundamental civil rights of the men and women of Connecticut to keep and bear arms for self defense of themselves and the state as guaranteed by the United States Constitution and the Constitution of Connecticut.

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  4. #4
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    I was previously aware of Mr. Hatfield's letter. Note it does not say its a legal opinion ...so estoppel is not attached.

    Also, even if estoppel could be attached, the section discussed is an "exceptions" ... this is an affirmative defense (ie YOU have to prove it .. by the time the DA gets done presenting their case YOU will be vilified by the state and a jury or judge will not believe you)...see some case law in respect to what the state MUST prove for a 29-38 conviction (you'll note that you not going to a range is not there) .. other cases support the elements: 1) handgun in car 2) you were in car 3) you or others in car have no permit (everyone in the car can be charged) 4) you knew the gun was in the car ... that's it ...

    And also don't forget this bit:
    ****************
    if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or
    revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides
    ****************
    I looked at this issue on the whole of several statues ... 29-38, 29-38d, and 29-35.....29-38d covers folks traveling from outside the state and through the state 29-35 covers folks coming from outside the state for shooting inside CT and 29-38 covers travel inside the state by CT residents.

    And, of course, the ? of IF an affirmative defense is proper for a core right is appropriate.

    I know others have different opinions as to the question of IF you can transport w/o a permit under 29-35 (I don't think so given the language of 29-38) ... but the exception is an affirmative defense and one that I don't think one would be able to prove without documenting the trip to the range before it happens ..

    All cops I talked to say they will arrest you if you have a handgun in the car w/o a permit ... so that's the best argument at all ...

    I have pointed this out to my local legislators and am working with them for maybe another sub-section of 29-38 to be added that would provide some clearly defined means to transport without regard to a need for going to "practice" or "range" to be even noted. We can transport long guns (per very limited requirements that 29-38 outlines) .. I don't see an issue with hand guns ... in my hearing I provided studies & testimony showing that as long as a person does not touch a gun, you can pretty much transport it in almost any manner. I don't like a "locked case" provision because in reality most cases are plastic and can easily be accessed even if locked.








    *********************************
    We previously have held that "in a prosecution for a violation of § 29-38, the state must prove the following elements: (1) that the defendant owned, operated or occupied the vehicle; (2) that he had a weapon in the vehicle; (3) that he knew the weapon was in the vehicle; and (4) that he had no permit or registration for the weapon." State v. Delossantos, 211 Conn. 258, 273, 559 A.2d 164, cert. denied, 493 U.S. 866, 110 S. Ct. 188, 107 L. Ed. 2d 142 (1989).

    271 Conn. 785
    STATE OF CONNECTICUT
    v.
    NELSON RAMOS.
    (SC 16829).
    Supreme Court of Connecticut.
    Argued April 15, 2004.
    Officially released November 23, 2004.

    ************************************************** ********

  5. #5
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    All you are doing it rehashing the same discussions we have already had. We know without a permit it is not a great idea to transport a pistol in your car.

    That is why we recommend at least having an eligibility certificate.

    Just like so many other things in Connecticut with regards to firearms, you should be prepared to defend yourself in court.


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