Here Comes More Gun Control

ncwabbit said:

scm54449 the graph in your proceeding post is attributed to what source since it is not part of the Harvard article you referenced?? so i might review the background data?

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The graph came from here: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

marshaul said:

Don't be ridiculous. There's no benefit to making people carry guns if they don't want to.

Allowing those who do is that best that can be done. In the real world, anyway.

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They are the ones charged with teaching, guiding and protecting the children in their care. If they are not willing to fight for the children they don't need to be in a class room where their inability to use a gun endangers their students. We don't need more milquetoast pacifists in our teaching profession, we need men and women who can set an example to children that they can and should learn to protect themselves and be able to do so by setting a positive example.

Old Grump said:

They are the ones charged with teaching, guiding and protecting the children in their care. If they are not willing to fight for the children they don't need to be in a class room where their inability to use a gun endangers their students. We don't need more milquetoast pacifists in our teaching profession, we need men and women who can set an example to children that they can and should learn to protect themselves and be able to do so by setting a positive example.

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Excellent idea. We should immediately fire every single teacher who isn't comfortable with their own ability to safely use a firearm in a crowded classroom, because clearly every single such teacher must be a "milquetoast pacifist". We should then replace them with diehard militants eager to carry guns at all times. After all, it's impossible to understand why a country of diverse thought might want teachers of diverse personality types, with at least a few being interested in something other than militancy and self-defense.

I wouldn't send my kids to your school. Frankly, your approach is no more pro-freedom than the brady bunch's. You can absolutely guarantee that in a free society, some people won't want to carry guns. I wouldn't want someone to carry if they don't trust themselves to do so. And to establish willingness to carry as an absolute criterion for teaching is ridiculous (there I go, forced to use that word again), back in the real world.

I remember when the debate on this site was sophisticated: the envy of anti-gunners everywhere. Arguments and positions were not of the sort to be trivially discounted out of hand. Folks made realistic arguments even people on "the other side" had a hard time countering effectively. However, as it's become increasingly subject to the rabid, blind partisanship which defines the rest of American politics, it's become increasingly retarded, like the rest of American politics.

"Oh yeah, let's just fire any teachers who don't want to carry guns because they're milquetoast pacifists." WTF is this puerile approach to political change, this comic book view of life? Are we 12?

Folks, we're not going to win this battle (much less the war), by being even more emotional and less rational than the Brady Bunch, by being even more blindly partisan, by spouting even more needlessly divisive rhetoric. We have the better position. Reason, logic, and right are on our side. Let's act like it.

HankT said:

How many armed teachers in the U.S. do you figure it would take to solve the problem, like the Israelis did? Do you have an estimate?

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Let's not worry about the number, let's worry about protecting our kids. The protection they have in place now as all can see, isn't working.

JJC

JJC said:

Let's not worry about the number, let's worry about protecting our kids. The protection they have in place now as all can see, isn't working.

JJC

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I agree. Who cares if some teachers stay unarmed? So long as there is an armed presence.

Most schools have a security officer of some sort. This person should be armed. In the Connecticut tragedy, the principal sacrificed her life trying to disarm the attacker. She should have been armed.

Heck, a rifle in the principal's office (properly secured) would have saved quite a number of lives.

marshaul said:

Folks, we're not going to win this battle (much less the war), by being even more emotional and less rational than the Brady Bunch, by being even more blindly partisan, by spouting even more needlessly divisive rhetoric. We have the better position. Reason, logic, and right are on our side. Let's act like it.

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Amen, Marshaul. It is time for us to get to work and take back the high ground.

No clue

marshaul said:

Excellent idea. We should immediately fire every single teacher who isn't comfortable with their own ability to safely use a firearm in a crowded classroom, because clearly every single such teacher must be a "milquetoast pacifist". We should then replace them with diehard militants eager to carry guns at all times. After all, it's impossible to understand why a country of diverse thought might want a teachers of diverse personality types, with at least a few being interested in something other than militancy and self-defense.

I wouldn't send my kids to your school. Frankly, your approach is no more pro-freedom than the brady bunch's. You can absolutely guarantee that in a free society, some people won't want to carry guns. I wouldn't want someone to carry if they don't trust themselves to do so. And to establish willingness to carry as an absolute criteria for teaching is ridiculous (there I go, forced to use that word again), back in the real world.

I remember when the debate on this site was sophisticated: the envy of anti-gunners everywhere. Arguments and positions were not of the sort to be trivially discounted out of hand. People made realistic arguments even people on "the other side" had a hard time countering effectively. However, as it's become increasingly subject to the rabid, blind partisanship which defines the rest of American politics, it's become increasingly retarded, like the rest of American politics.

"Oh yeah, let's just fire any teachers who don't want to carry guns because they're milquetoast pacifists." WTF is this puerile approach to political change, this comic book view of life? Are we 12?

Folks, we're not going to win this battle (much less the war), by being even more emotional and less rational than the Brady Bunch, by being even more blindly partisan, by spouting even more needlessly divisive rhetoric. We have the better position. Reason, logic, and right are on our side. Let's act like it.

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Excellent post. The level of the rhetorical contestation has recently reached a simplistic and absurd level.

One side would use force to prohibit citizens from owning and carrying firearms, which is their God given right.

The other side would use force to compel citizens to use firearms which they would choose not to, which is their God given right.

And the brainiacs on both sides have no clear understanding of what each side is proposing and rejecting . No clue.

Dedicated simplism, naivete and pipe dreams abound in the overall fight. I don't know which side is worse, the antis or the pros.

Israeli teacher with her students at school. Could it be that what she has slung over her shoulder be the reason they haven't had any school shootings?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...her_with_her_class2B252822529_zps37cadc17.jpg

Sometimes the simplest answers are the best answers to complex problems. We made the problem by letting liberals take over our schools, we made the problem when we allowed liberals to declare gun free zones around malls, public buildings, places of worship and schools, especially schools. Youngsters with little life experience pushed into a situation where the people guiding them, teaching them, maintaining their building, providing them meals are prohibited by law from being able to protect schools. Everybody is saying armed guards. Some districts are o strapped for cash because of unfunded mandates and time constraints that recess, physical education, music, language classes even sports teams have been curtailed and you think they can afford armed guards?

You have bought into the liberal peer pressure that guns are bad and if you work around them you won't upset their sensitive natures by wearing one openly or carrying concealed if they specifically ask you to. I'm saying it is time for a sea change and get rid of gun free zones or as the crazies like to think of them 'Free Fire with many targets of opportunity Zones'.
We are under attack by our own government who closed down the mental institutions and turned sociopaths loose on the street with a prescription for drugs that they may or may not use as prescribed. Big savings and now our prisons are full of people who should be in an institution but not a prison.

Nastiest most restrictive gun laws just south of us inside Chicago and some of its collar cities where the average mufer rate over a year is more than 1 a day.

We send our children into school in the hopes that they will learn, socialize and be safe but who is going to protect them if you think teachers and staff should not be armed. I reiterate if a teacher is charged with the safety of my children they should have the means, the training and the tools to do so. A ruler or laser pointer or a firm commanding voice is not going to stop a crazy, A school building full of armed people are. You think I am radical, well tell that to the children of Israel who are used to seeing a gun on the hip of their teachers or the parents who come to pick them up after school.

Perhaps you prefer the more draconian gun restricted societies of Japan, China and Mexico. Stabbings, slashings, chopping, clubbing, poison gas, bombs and all the automatic rifles a crime lord could hope for at their disposal. The law abiding gun free citizens can only pray, shrug and hope they survive another day.

Hard case, you bet I am, I have a real mean streak in me when it comes to anybody who would beat, molest or hurt a woman or child. Less free, are you out of your mind? Nobody says a teacher has to have a gun, let him work in Walmart as an accountant and let him see where the real money is or get a job with a high tech company researching customer satisfaction with the latest new improved mind numbing video games. The world is their oyster only limited by their imagination and limitations but if they are going to be in charge of my kids they better be able to protect my kids.

Old Grump said:

Sometimes the simplest answers are the best answers to complex problems. We made the problem by letting liberals take over our schools, we made the problem when we allowed liberals to declare gun free zones around malls, public buildings, places of worship and schools, especially schools. Youngsters with little life experience pushed into a situation where the people guiding them, teaching them, maintaining their building, providing them meals are prohibited by law from being able to protect schools. Everybody is saying armed guards. Some districts are o strapped for cash because of unfunded mandates and time constraints that recess, physical education, music, language classes even sports teams have been curtailed and you think they can afford armed guards?

You have bought into the liberal peer pressure that guns are bad and if you work around them you won't upset their sensitive natures by wearing one openly or carrying concealed if they specifically ask you to. I'm saying it is time for a sea change and get rid of gun free zones or as the crazies like to think of them 'Free Fire with many targets of opportunity Zones'.
We are under attack by our own government who closed down the mental institutions and turned sociopaths loose on the street with a prescription for drugs that they may or may not use as prescribed. Big savings and now our prisons are full of people who should be in an institution but not a prison.

Nastiest most restrictive gun laws just south of us inside Chicago and some of its collar cities where the average mufer rate over a year is more than 1 a day.

We send our children into school in the hopes that they will learn, socialize and be safe but who is going to protect them if you think teachers and staff should not be armed. I reiterate if a teacher is charged with the safety of my children they should have the means, the training and the tools to do so. A ruler or laser pointer or a firm commanding voice is not going to stop a crazy, A school building full of armed people are. You think I am radical, well tell that to the children of Israel who are used to seeing a gun on the hip of their teachers or the parents who come to pick them up after school.

Perhaps you prefer the more draconian gun restricted societies of Japan, China and Mexico. Stabbings, slashings, chopping, clubbing, poison gas, bombs and all the automatic rifles a crime lord could hope for at their disposal. The law abiding gun free citizens can only pray, shrug and hope they survive another day.

Hard case, you bet I am, I have a real mean streak in me when it comes to anybody who would beat, molest or hurt a woman or child. Less free, are you out of your mind? Nobody says a teacher has to have a gun, let him work in Walmart as an accountant and let him see where the real money is or get a job with a high tech company researching customer satisfaction with the latest new improved mind numbing video games. The world is their oyster only limited by their imagination and limitations but if they are going to be in charge of my kids they better be able to protect my kids.

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+1,000

Old Grump said:

We are under attack by our own government who closed down the mental institutions and turned sociopaths loose on the street with a prescription for drugs that they may or may not use as prescribed. Big savings and now our prisons are full of people who should be in an institution but not a prison.

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Just one small correction. Sociopaths are most commonly found in the legal system or in the case of sociopaths who are intelligent and socialized, may be CEO's of corporations or remarkably successful salesmen. There are no medications available to change a sociopath into something other than a sociopath. The unfortunate reality is we can't reliably "rehabilitate" criminals any more than we can cure mental illness whether affective disorders such as manic-depressive illness or cognitive disorders such as schizophrenia.

It is not at all unusual to see sociopaths "hiding out" in the mental health system or manic-depressives or schizophrenics who have committed crimes and as a result are found in the legal system.

its not the gun it’s the user. The governor here said she was not into banning guns but looking into reporting deficiancies to the feds on mental health records. The mother of this last shooter knew her son had mental probs but yet didn’t secure her weapons. The last gun ban we had the Columbine shooting which proved again banning is not the solution. Nor is drugging our children because of behavorial issues. Instead of the last 15 years of tossing pills at a problem the parents should of found out what was wrong and how to fix it. I truly believe you feed kids pills you increase the mental probs and just hide them behind the pill. They get older still maybe on mood/mind pills and even more dangerous with less restriction then they had as kid. The bad feelings and hate or whatever they had wrong don’t go away they just get masked. And become evident through crime or more drug use and other violent actions.

Well, some of you are missing the point. These laws aren't to make anything safer. They aren't passed to actually accomplish something. They are passed so a dirty politician can run their next campaign and say "look, I banned xxx type of guns or accessories, I am serious about "protecting" you!!"

It's a big game to gain leverage. If anything, liberal politicians are good at reading the trends and emotions of society and latching on to them. They have done it with entitlements, healthcare, and now it will be guns, one of the last bastions of a truly free society.

Politicians know full well that these laws do absolutely nothing; but they do however do two things, one was mentioned above and the other is to keep people who follow the law in check, as they know that we would never go against a law. So in other words, we just keep slowly losing ground until it just doesn't matter anymore.

I keep hearing the idea of a registration system being imposed and a ban on military calibers of all kinds, even foreign ones. Personally, I don't plan to participate in any sort of "tracking system" set forth by this government. And most of us have a stockpile of ammunition for the weapons we do have, so the second point can be moot to a certain degree.

I just think there comes a point in time when a people have to stand back and really question how far they want to let their gov. push them around.


And as far as teachers being armed, I say yes, of course, but only the ones that want to be. And they should receive paid training with refresher courses each year. Nothing too crazy, but enough to be a threat to any nutcake that comes in to try to do damage.


Snake~

Snake161 said:

Well, some of you are missing the point. These laws aren't to make anything safer. They aren't passed to actually accomplish something. They are passed so a dirty politician can run their next campaign and say "look, I banned xxx type of guns or accessories, I am serious about "protecting" you!!"

It's a big game to gain leverage. If anything, liberal politicians are good at reading the trends and emotions of society and latching on to them. They have done it with entitlements, healthcare, and now it will be guns, one of the last bastions of a truly free society.

Politicians know full well that these laws do absolutely nothing; but they do however do two things, one was mentioned above and the other is to keep people who follow the law in check, as they know that we would never go against a law. So in other words, we just keep slowly losing ground until it just doesn't matter anymore.

I keep hearing the idea of a registration system being imposed and a ban on military calibers of all kinds, even foreign ones. Personally, I don't plan to participate in any sort of "tracking system" set forth by this government. And most of us have a stockpile of ammunition for the weapons we do have, so the second point can be moot to a certain degree.

I just think there comes a point in time when a people have to stand back and really question how far they want to let their gov. push them around.


And as far as teachers being armed, I say yes, of course, but only the ones that want to be. And they should receive paid training with refresher courses each year. Nothing too crazy, but enough to be a threat to any nutcake that comes in to try to do damage.


Snake~

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I'd be willing to train & certify teachers at no cost.

JJC