Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Force of Law - No Gun Signs & Must Inform Law Enforcement - MAPS

  1. #1
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    341

    Force of Law - No Gun Signs & Must Inform Law Enforcement - MAPS

    I have repeatedly asked Open Carry admin to post these maps and was told "Why Don't You Make Them". Well, I did! I am sure they will not post them for others to see with their chosen maps like "machine gun ownership" (what that has to do with a carry forum I don't know). These maps are much more RELEVANT, and were compiled from current info on handgunlaw dot us, a TRUSTED source.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	forceoflaw.gif 
Views:	2317 
Size:	18.6 KB 
ID:	9680   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mustinform.gif 
Views:	1417 
Size:	18.0 KB 
ID:	9681  

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Rio Rancho, New Mexico, United States
    Posts
    348
    OK stupid question what is force of law

    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
    Anyone Else is a Subject

  3. #3
    Regular Member CCinMaine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Windham, Maine
    Posts
    193

    Re: Force of Law - No Gun Signs & Must Inform Law Enforcement - MAPS

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueAussie View Post
    OK stupid question what is force of law

    That if a place posts a sign that says no guns and you ignore it that you can be arrested for possession of a weapon.

    And in Maine signs only bear the weight of law if it is a place "licenced for the on premises consumption of liquor".

    http://www.mainelegislature.org/legi...-Asec1057.html

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

  4. #4
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    341
    Force of law means there are criminal penalties ranging from a fine/misdemeanor to a felony for ignoring a "No Gun" sign posted in a private business or public building. I have revamped the map for "force of law". The earlier one was an early one I posted by mistake. Mississippi is Yes - foce of law in effect for most people unless you get a specific endorsement. I added NJ, MD, HI & IL as NO CARRY. NJ, MD & HI are "may issue" but they NEVER issue except to private armed guards. The other "may issue" states issue in some jurisdictions so I included them. Missouri there is force of law only if you have a second offense at a business with a sign. Utah is No force of law since force of law only applies at churches and private homes, not businesses. Those states that were vague I erred on the side of safety and put them as yes states.

    If you are in a state that has no force of law but there is a sign DON'T Open Carry there. You can still be trespassed. Just cover it an the business will never know.

    Red - Force of Law
    Green - No Force of Law
    Grey - No carry - or no carry due to no issue
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	forceoflaw.gif 
Views:	1000 
Size:	19.3 KB 
ID:	9682  

  5. #5
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    341
    Handgunlaw dot us lists it as a YES - Force of Law State:

    “YES”
    Title 17-A: Part 2 Chapter 17: B
    §402. Criminal Trespass
    1. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that that person is not licensed or privileged to do so,
    that person:
    C. Enters any place from which that person may lawfully be excluded and that is posted in
    accordance with subsection 4 or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders or
    that is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders. Violation of this
    paragraph is a Class E crime; [2001, c. 383, §156 (AFF); 2001, c. 383, §56 (AMD).]
    4. For the purposes of subsection 1, paragraph C, property is posted if it is marked with signs or paint in
    compliance with this subsection. Proof that any posted sign or paint marking is actually seen by an intruder
    gives rise to a permissible inference under the Maine Rules of Evidence, Rule 303 that such posted sign or
    paint marking is posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.
    17-A M.R.S.A. § 1057, Possession of Firearms in an Establishment Licensed for On Premises
    Consumption of Liquor
    1. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm if:
    A. Not being a law enforcement officer or a private investigator licensed under Title 32, chapter 89
    and actually performing as a private investigator, the person possesses any firearm on the premises
    of a licensed establishment posted to prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms in a manner
    reasonably likely to come to the attention of patrons, in violation of the posted prohibition or
    restriction
    B. A person convicted of a violation of this section is not eligible to obtain or apply for a permit to
    carry a concealed firearm for 5 years from the date of that conviction.

  6. #6
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    341
    This is for maine

    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    handgunlaw dot us lists it as a yes - force of law state:

    “yes”
    title 17-a: Part 2 chapter 17: B
    §402. Criminal trespass
    1. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that that person is not licensed or privileged to do so,
    that person:
    C. Enters any place from which that person may lawfully be excluded and that is posted in
    accordance with subsection 4 or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders or
    that is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders. Violation of this
    paragraph is a class e crime; [2001, c. 383, §156 (aff); 2001, c. 383, §56 (amd).]
    4. For the purposes of subsection 1, paragraph c, property is posted if it is marked with signs or paint in
    compliance with this subsection. Proof that any posted sign or paint marking is actually seen by an intruder
    gives rise to a permissible inference under the maine rules of evidence, rule 303 that such posted sign or
    paint marking is posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.
    17-a m.r.s.a. § 1057, possession of firearms in an establishment licensed for on premises
    consumption of liquor
    1. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm if:
    A. Not being a law enforcement officer or a private investigator licensed under title 32, chapter 89
    and actually performing as a private investigator, the person possesses any firearm on the premises
    of a licensed establishment posted to prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms in a manner
    reasonably likely to come to the attention of patrons, in violation of the posted prohibition or
    restriction
    b. A person convicted of a violation of this section is not eligible to obtain or apply for a permit to
    carry a concealed firearm for 5 years from the date of that conviction.
    this is for maine

  7. #7
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828
    OP'er

    Map indicating that Signs have the force of law related to UTAH is significantly misleading. Yes, Some signs do have the force of law, but only those posted at specific locations IDENTIFIED by the State legislature per statute as being NO LAWFUL CARRY. All other locations these signs which MAY be present do NOT carry the force of law. As for signs on Private property, the ONLY ones that do carry the force of law would be those on Churches or private residences. Public buildings would be any FEDERAL BUILDING where federal workers are regularly performing their duties per federal law (including post offices in this for convenience, separate law covers post offices), Courthouses, secure portions of Jails, Airports, and certain mental health facilities.
    With regard to Churches or private residences--- no signs are even required, but specific methods of communicating the owner's wishes are specified.

    Mostly, ignoring these signs on private property (other that residences) exposes one to a simple trespass charge. Ignoring the NO Carry info in a Church is even less as a mere infraction (similar to a traffic citation).

    And quoting from the handgunlaw dot us source you cited:

    Last paragraph under the section "Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?"


    “No Firearm” signs in Utah have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-16-2012 at 12:22 AM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    What law in Alabama gives "No gun" signs force of law? I lived there for decades and know of no such law. Also, in all the time I lived there, I never saw a gunbuster sign, probably because they would only indicate the preference of the owner and would not, in and of themselves, create a criminal situation by carrying there.

  9. #9
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098

    Re: Force of Law - No Gun Signs & Must Inform Law Enforcement - MAPS

    I think more research should be done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  10. #10
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    341
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What law in Alabama gives "No gun" signs force of law?
    You are right... I clicked the wrong color when going back and forth from the map creator to handgunlaw dot org. Alabama is a NO Force of Law state. Another poster said more research should be done. I agree! Whoever created and posted the other maps on OCDO should research and post these MOST important maps since this forum is about carry - right?

  11. #11
    Regular Member 4angrybadgers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Hattiesburg, Mississippi, USA
    Posts
    411
    Your map is incorrect for Mississippi - well, partly. In 45-9-101, the section of the MS state code defining the "License to Carry Concealed Pistol or Revolver" (the license itself is labeled "MS Firearms Permit"), there are requirements on the visibility and wording of a no-gun sign for it to have force of law. If the sign meets requirements, then it is a violation of 45-9-101 to carry a concealed weapon onto the premises.

    The relevant portion of 45-9-101 is quoted below, bolding is mine, and the sections of the code before/after (13) are removed as they are not relevant.
    Miss. Code Ann. § 45-9-101

    MISSISSIPPI CODE of 1972
    *** Current through the 2012 Regular Session ***
    TITLE 45. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER
    CHAPTER 9. WEAPONS
    LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED PISTOL OR REVOLVER
    Miss. Code Ann. § 45-9-101 (2012)
    § 45-9-101. License to carry stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver
    <SNIP>

    (13) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver into any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, Mississippi Code of 1972; any police, sheriff or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his courtroom; any polling place; any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any portion of an establishment, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, that is primarily devoted to dispensing alcoholic beverages; any portion of an establishment in which beer or light wine is consumed on the premises, that is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any junior college, community college, college or university facility unless for the purpose of participating in any authorized firearms-related activity; inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment, for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; any church or other place of worship; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. In addition to the places enumerated in this subsection, the carrying of a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver may be disallowed in any place in the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of such place by the placing of a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that the "carrying of a pistol or revolver is prohibited." No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize the participants in a parade or demonstration for which a permit is required to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver.
    <SNIP>
    What will further muddies the waters, is that Mississippi has an "enhanced" permit that modifies language in 97-37-7 (2), which strikes out nearly all of the restrictions quoted above from 45-9-101 (13). Apparently that includes places marked with "valid" no-gun signs, which means that it appears you can ignore such no-gun signs with the "enhanced" permit.

    Now, that section regulates the carry of concealed weapons, and does not regulate openly carried weapons. In fact, paragraph (18) specifically states that the section does not itself address or allow the "open and unconcealed carry" of weapons.

    There is the caveat that MS does not have any statutory or case law definition of "concealed". The only case anyone can find even touching upon the topic mentions it only in passing as a historical note. Some OCDO members are of the opinion that the wording of that case lumps open carry under concealed carry, due to the holster supposed "concealing" a firearm. It's never been defined or tested by the legislature or courts, so it's just personal opinion at this point.
    Last edited by 4angrybadgers; 12-21-2012 at 02:48 PM.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137
    I live in the Great State of Washington and I don't believe there is a requirement for me to tell anyone when I conceal. Of course I never have this problem as I do not conceal. When traffic stopped there is no requirement/law to inform a LEO of anything.
    That said, when listening to the locals on scanner, they are always informed of a CPL by the owner of a vehicle when called in.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 12-28-2012 at 06:23 PM. Reason: spelig agen
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  13. #13
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Logan, OH
    Posts
    1,028
    In the original post, the tone is a bit arrogant that OCDO won't post the maps the user made.

    In almost all the subsequent posts, errors are pointed out, even by the OP.

    Then the OP suggests that someone else should do the research to correct and maintain the maps he made.

    I agree that the information is relavant and would be useful, but surely there is a less insulting way of suggesting a new map to OCDO? I would have suggested the map to the user base first, just to see who's interested. With enough interest, OCDO would probably take on the task.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    In the original post, the tone is a bit arrogant that OCDO won't post the maps the user made.
    The OP wasn't being arrogant, he was expressing frustration.

    In almost all the subsequent posts, errors are pointed out, even by the OP.

    Then the OP suggests that someone else should do the research to correct and maintain the maps he made.
    The OP never wanted to make these maps himself you know. He wanted OCDO to make them, but they refused and asked him to make them instead, and then of course they don't want to post them because they didn't make the maps themselves. The OP did make a slight mistake in his original post, as he should have said he asked them to make the maps, not that he asked them to post them. But that was REALLY obvious from context, so I would think you would have caught that before you posted this.

    I agree that the information is relavant and would be useful, but surely there is a less insulting way of suggesting a new map to OCDO? I would have suggested the map to the user base first, just to see who's interested. With enough interest, OCDO would probably take on the task.
    How much less insulting can you get than politely and privately asking OCDO to make and post these maps?

    At this point the OP is basically just trying to do what you ultimately suggested, build interest in the users to hopefully get OCDO to do this. He is just doing it with a bunch of obvious frustration, which is unfortunate, but not entirely his fault.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    484
    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    If you are in a state that has no force of law but there is a sign DON'T Open Carry there. You can still be trespassed. Just cover it an the business will never know.
    Well that isn't true, you can't just be trespassed. If you meant to say that you may be asked to leave and you refuse you will be trespassed then you would be correct.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    Well that isn't true, you can't just be trespassed. If you meant to say that you may be asked to leave and you refuse you will be trespassed then you would be correct.
    That varies from State to State. In Ohio, if you enter an establishment with a no-gun sign, you have already committed a crime for which you can be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced.

    Folks, know your State laws. Don't even take my word for Ohio law. Read it for yourself.

    There is way too much mythology about the law out there. Worse, there are way too many people ready to parrot that mythology!

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    484
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That varies from State to State. In Ohio, if you enter an establishment with a no-gun sign, you have already committed a crime for which you can be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced.

    Folks, know your State laws. Don't even take my word for Ohio law. Read it for yourself.

    There is way too much mythology about the law out there. Worse, there are way too many people ready to parrot that mythology!
    He said in states with no force of law. In a state where signs carry no weight of law you can not be charged with a crime by ignoring a sign. You must be asked to leave before you can be arrested (legally) for trespassing. With that being said, yes, you do need to research the law in your state to determine whether or not signs in your state carry any weight.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •