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Thread: A lawyers opinion on OC in a school

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    A lawyers opinion on OC in a school

    From Facebook
    George Gostias: As an attorney, former mcrgo volunteer, and NRA instructor I can tell you that you there is way to much misinformation on the web. If that is where you get your legal advice from you are headed for trouble. DO NOT, i repeat, do not carry a firearm onto school property. Federal law still prohibits that. see gun free school zones act of 1990.

    What do you guys think?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    As I read it, a MI CPL qualifies as an exemption to the Federal gun free zones act.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    From Facebook
    George Gostias: As an attorney, former mcrgo volunteer, and NRA instructor I can tell you that you there is way to much misinformation on the web. If that is where you get your legal advice from you are headed for trouble. DO NOT, i repeat, do not carry a firearm onto school property. Federal law still prohibits that. see gun free school zones act of 1990.

    What do you guys think?
    do you have a link? i don't see this on his law firm page. the MSP also disagree with him. not to mention current MCRGO attorney Steve Dulan and MCRGO also acknowledges the legality of open carry in schools. so does MOC.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 12-18-2012 at 07:49 PM.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    What do you guys think?
    There's been plenty of OC in Michigan GFSZs. How many cases can he cite of GFSZA violation convictions in Michigan? I don't think there are any.

    That seems to me to be the most immediate thought that should come to mind.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  5. #5
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    do you have a link? i don't see this on his law firm page. the MSP also disagree with him. not to mention current MCRGO attorney Steve Dulan and MCRGO also acknowledges the legality of open carry in schools. so does MOC.
    https://www.facebook.com/mcrgo/posts/569498343075605
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    A lawyers opinion on OC in a school

    Federal law provides an exemption for people who have a permit issued from the state the GFSZ is in if that permit was issued after a background check has been done.

    If this wasn't the case, you couldn't OC or CC a pistol in a city because you'd almost always be within 1000' of a school.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: A lawyers opinion on OC in a school

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    From Facebook
    George Gostias: As an attorney, former mcrgo volunteer, and NRA instructor I can tell you that you there is way to much misinformation on the web. If that is where you get your legal advice from you are headed for trouble. DO NOT, i repeat, do not carry a firearm onto school property. Federal law still prohibits that. see gun free school zones act of 1990.

    What do you guys think?
    Although the attorney may be trying to dissuade gun owners from doing so, and MAY be correct regarding a person just taking their pistol and carrying it at a school, the fact remains that Federal law does NOT prohibit those who have a license issued by the state in which the school is located, which required a background check before it was issued, from possessing the firearm in a school.

    If he thinks that a Michigan license to purchase, carry, etc does not meet that requirement, he MAY be correct. And in the dictum regarding a charge in which that issue had absolutely no bearing on the actual decision, at least one Lansing area judge may actually hold the same personal opinion.

    But, as the case in which the Kent County prosecutor decided no law was violated when a CPL holder carried while voting at a school in Grand Rapids showed, when people are asked to prosecute actual violations of the law, they will likely choose to follow the law even though they personally disagree with what the law clearly states. Knowing the prosecutor's desire to aggressively prosecute those who violate the law, I'm sure the prosecutor would have done so if he had even the remotest chance of being successful.

    My guess is that this attorney is attempting to express something that is more wishful thinking than an understanding based on a reading of the law. This statement only shows that not all self-identified gun-law experts are.

    If I had to find an attorney to represent me in regards to anything having to do with firearms and I saw this person's name as possible representation, I would keep looking.

    Were you surprised that a supposed advocate would be so willing to throw OC under the bus in the furtherance of personal desires? Considering the most recent discussions regarding sb59, this attitude is no shock to me.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-18-2012 at 08:18 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  8. #8
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    In general, the guy is wrong. There is only ONE case in the entire USA that I am aware of where this wasn't true, and it was in GA (I think) where the .gov argued that GA gave carry licenses out like candy without doing real background checks, so GA authorities didn't follow the federal guidelines for the exemption.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Back in 2009, when I took my CPL class, Dean Greenblatt detailed how and why OC in CEZ's is legal, and for the same reasons why so many of us state that it is.

    It really isn't complicated.

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Gostias
    As an attorney, former mcrgo volunteer, and NRA instructor I can tell you...
    do not carry a firearm onto school property. Federal law still prohibits that. [S]ee gun free school zones act of 1990.
    I think he needs to learn how to read federal law at least as well as a regular person.
    There are a handful of conditions that make having a firearm on school property perfectly legal according to federal law.

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    The law is not written in Klingon ... people can read law and case law and find out stuff pretty well .. as we see on this thread.

    Good job guys.

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    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    18 USC, Section 922(q) (2) (B) (ii):

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I'll take his advice and not listen to him as it's clear he is an idiot when it comes to federal law in this case.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Back in 2009, when I took my CPL class, Dean Greenblatt detailed how and why OC in CEZ's is legal, and for the same reasons why so many of us state that it is.

    It really isn't complicated.
    It's probably just a loophole.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    It's probably just a loophole.

    Bronson
    I seem to have heard that
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  16. #16
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    Noiw is the time to open carry at K-12 schools in Michigan - the Governor demands it!

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Noiw is the time to open carry at K-12 schools in Michigan - the Governor demands it!
    Yes, the governor has left CC'ers with the same option they always had before: OC in PFZs. I would encourage them to exercise the carry legally available to them, as they see fit while going about their business.

    It is better that CC'ers get comfortable with OC and practice it in PFZs, rather than be gun-rights turn-coats and help get it banned.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-20-2012 at 08:52 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    From Facebook
    George Gostias: As an attorney, former mcrgo volunteer, and NRA instructor I can tell you that you there is way to much misinformation on the web. If that is where you get your legal advice from you are headed for trouble. DO NOT, i repeat, do not carry a firearm onto school property. Federal law still prohibits that. see gun free school zones act of 1990.

    What do you guys think?
    Perhaps some OCers can email photos of themselves carrying at their local school to this guy. He may have trouble reading statutes but like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
    Last edited by OC4me; 12-20-2012 at 09:13 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Noiw is the time to open carry at K-12 schools in Michigan - the Governor demands it!
    While I agree with you, I would advise that it is probably wise to actually have some business at the school, as opposed to just going to stand around.

  20. #20
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    http://www.cmda-law.com/.../Firearms...al+in+Michigan


    Check out the column from the On Law October 2012 issue. Ms Linda Davis Friedland wrote that open carry w/ CPL is indeed lawful in Michigan schools. I do not know how to post a link other than giving you the above web-site info. Interesting article. I am faced with a local prosecutor in the county north of me (MontMorenci)who says that it is a crime unless you have your box checked on your permit. More later.springerdave.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yeah, that link doesn't work.
    all you have to do is copy the link from the browser and paste it into your comment
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member Hyperion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    yeah, that link doesn't work.
    all you have to do is copy the link from the browser and paste it into your comment
    http://www.cmda-law.com/uploaded_pic...1011110903.pdf

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    Thank you Hyperion.springerdave.

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    Regular Member Amandat's Avatar
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    I am a substitute teacher (with cpl) and really want to oc when subbing ( only because it is unlawful to cc....that's bu**s**t...but I feel very nervous to try it. When arriving at a school to sub teach and seen with a gun on my side i may be approached by principal or superintendent and or asked to leave (explain myself). Ugg. I just want to feel safe and make the students safer after all these school shootings. I just gotta get up the courage to oc when I sub! I already oc at the schools when I pick up drop off kids even in school office. But that's not when going to work there. All my children told me they had many teachers te'll them they now want to oc in the school because of the conn shooting. But none will do it in fear if losing their job or starting something big. I was wondering about writing a letter to the super intendant with some legal proof that it is lawful and then asking his opinion on the matter of substitutes or school personnel open carting in the school. Since it is legal and a way to keep students safe I could inform him of the teachers in his schools who have openly expressed wanting to carry while at work ?? I do not want to start anything but feel it is a right and anyone should be able to do it without fear of loosing their job or being asked to leave. I can see it now. .... " your upsetting the kids!" Ugg
    Last edited by Amandat; 01-11-2013 at 08:26 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    Just do it, never, ever, ever, ask. If problems arise, we will see what you can do about it.
    LOL You mean like finding another job? The possibility to land employment at another school district after being terminated for carrying a weapon/firearm at another school district just seems highly unlikely.

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