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Thread: Am I An OC Advocate?

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Am I An OC Advocate?

    Due to recent events, and some support for a flaming t.u.rd of a recently vetoed bill, the question of whether one is doing OC advocacy or not has been discussed.

    When it comes to any bill in the future like SB 59 (and it may come up again), I think you're an OC advocate if you predicate your support on there being no OC criminalization and . . . hell, Mike Stollenwerk says it best about what should be advocated for in such a bill:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    . . . I think this bill should be amended to eliminate the open carry prohibition, and grandfather-in all current CPL and non-Michigan CHP holders while applying the new training requirement to new Michigan CPL applicants only.
    Do you agree with Mike's points on what should be advocated for, if this ever comes up again? I do. Again, take note that I'm talking about what should be advocated for, if you think of calling yourself an OC advocate.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-20-2012 at 09:57 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

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  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hey Dan... we tried such a bill.... it was called SB57/58.... it stalled. Then there was the first version of SB59 which had nothing related to OC in it... then the version the gov said he might sign which banned OC in PFZ's. Then the weasel got into the henhouse in CT and the gov showed the colors we always knew he had.

    So the bill you and Mike wanted already was introduced and got no support from the house or senate leadership.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Hey Dan... we tried such a bill.... it was called SB57/58.... it stalled. Then there was the first version of SB59 which had nothing related to OC in it... then the version the gov said he might sign which banned OC in PFZ's. Then the weasel got into the henhouse in CT and the gov showed the colors we always knew he had.

    So the bill you and Mike wanted already was introduced and got no support from the house or senate leadership.
    So, then one way to overcome that is to go "incremental" and break down the basket of reforms into smaller bite-sized chunks of legislation.

    Another is to tie legislation either explicitly (by "tie-bar") or implicitly (by negotiating that it is part of a "package") to other legislation the governor and other legislators want.

    Another is the "rider" route where gun reforms are made as amendments to other legislation (to the extent possible in Michigan).

    Or a combination of any of the above, along with any other possibilities for re-setting or re-packaging the reforms we want without criminalizing any gun owner's currently legal purchase, possession, or carry rights.

    Then, at the end of the day, if none of that works without agreeing to go along with criminalizing some gun owners, you just gotta say, "Sorry, no thanks, we'll get rid of you via the ballot box rather than go along with you criminalizing us away!"
    Last edited by DanM; 12-20-2012 at 12:16 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  4. #4
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Slight OT: I thought I read here or over on MGO that SB59 was tie-barred with another bill, but the record doesn't show that. Was it, and if so, what?

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=2011-SB-0059
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
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  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Am I An OC Advocate?

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Slight OT: I thought I read here or over on MGO that SB59 was tie-barred with another bill, but the record doesn't show that. Was it, and if so, what?

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=2011-SB-0059
    No tie-bar. It was a gentle men's agreement: Senate would pass 5225 if House passed 59.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    No tie-bar. It was a gentle men's agreement: Senate would pass 5225 if House passed 59.
    In Lansing Sir you will be hard pressed to find a gentleman anywhere in the legislature in my honest opinion. See Gov. Snyder for an example of what I speak of.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Am I An OC Advocate?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    In Lansing Sir you will be hard pressed to find a gentleman anywhere in the legislature in my honest opinion. See Gov. Snyder for an example of what I speak of.
    Senate/House held up their end...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  8. #8
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    That's not what I was referring to. I thought I read--and maybe I misunderstood--that there was some other non-firearms legislation that Gov. Snyder was being pushed to sign, that was tied to SB59.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Am I An OC Advocate?

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    That's not what I was referring to. I thought I read--and maybe I misunderstood--that there was some other non-firearms legislation that Gov. Snyder was being pushed to sign, that was tied to SB59.
    Nope. Not true. No official tie-bars.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Guess that definition by the OP leaves me out. I suppose I am just plain a Carry Advocate. I believe in both OC and CC as they both have their pros and cons. To me the fact that you do carry is more important than how you carry, either way you have your weapon for self defense.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 12-20-2012 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Rephrased a sentence
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  11. #11
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    So, then one way to overcome that is to go "incremental" and break down the basket of reforms into smaller bite-sized chunks of legislation.

    Another is to tie legislation either explicitly (by "tie-bar") or implicitly (by negotiating that it is part of a "package") to other legislation the governor and other legislators want.

    Another is the "rider" route where gun reforms are made as amendments to other legislation (to the extent possible in Michigan).

    Or a combination of any of the above, along with any other possibilities for re-setting or re-packaging the reforms we want without criminalizing any gun owner's currently legal purchase, possession, or carry rights.

    Then, at the end of the day, if none of that works without agreeing to go along with criminalizing some gun owners, you just gotta say, "Sorry, no thanks, we'll get rid of you via the ballot box rather than go along with you criminalizing us away!"
    Tie-Bar 2A&OC Rights expansion to bills that must be passed!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  12. #12
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Sadly according to YOU I am not an OC advocate, which I can live with.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Due to recent events, and some support for a flaming t.u.rd of a recently vetoed bill, the question of whether one is doing OC advocacy or not has been discussed.

    When it comes to any bill in the future like SB 59 (and it may come up again), I think you're an OC advocate if you predicate your support on there being no OC criminalization and . . . hell, Mike Stollenwerk says it best about what should be advocated for in such a bill:



    Do you agree with Mike's points on what should be advocated for, if this ever comes up again? I do. Again, take note that I'm talking about what should be advocated for, if you think of calling yourself an OC advocate.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  13. #13
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Guess that definition by the OP leaves me out. I suppose I am just plain a Carry Advocate. I believe in both OC and CC as they both have their pros and cons. To me the fact that you do carry is more important than how you carry, either way you have your weapon for self defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Sadly according to YOU I am not an OC advocate, which I can live with.
    You and me both. But just one person's opinion. Everyone has one.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 12-20-2012 at 10:21 PM.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  14. #14
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    And i am just nobody ! hehe !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    And i am just nobody ! hehe !!!!
    Life is much easier that way. Think of the time, energy, and expense some folks exhaust in an attempt to maintain a facade of self importance.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Life is much easier that way. Think of the time, energy, and expense some folks exhaust in an attempt to maintain a facade of self importance.
    Are you saying some people are a legend in their own mind? lol
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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