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Thread: Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

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    Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    I've always thought that the only people "Gun Free Zones" really benefit are homicidal maniacs. I was unpleasantly surprised to find out that my church, the LDS Church, actually supports "Gun Free Zones". Not only that, but the Church actively goes out of its way to legally make sure that those attending services in LDS buildings in Utah are prohibited from defending themselves with firearms.

    I started looking into this when I heard a local church leader talking about the shooting in Connecticut, and he mentioned in passing that we shouldn't bring guns to church. He kind of chuckled after he said this so I thought he might of been joking. I decided to go to the Church Handbook of Instructions and find out if there is an official position on this issue. This is what I found:

    21.2.4
    Firearms

    "Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law."

    Inappropriate? Why would it be inappropriate for me to have a tool that could be used to defend my family and others? If it's inappropriate for me, then why not for cops, and why not for the bodyguards that protect the president of the Church?

    This kind of troubled me, so I went to some LDS Liberty friends of mine to ask them about this issue. They assured me this was just a meaningless policy, and that it was ridiculous for me to compare a church policy with a government law establishing gun free zones. They snickered at the "stupidity" of my argument.

    That enlightening conversation got me wondering what the law was in the State of Utah on cocealed carry in churches. That's when I stumbled upon this newsletter sent out by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification to all CCW instructors. In this January 2004 letter, the BCI states:

    "According to SB108, All churches must notify BCI in writing if they wish to have concealed weapons restricted from their premises...So, please be sure to tell all of your students to check on our website (www.bci.utah.gov) to see if their church has become a restricted area."

    It turns out that in the State of Utah, concealed carry in churches is actually protected in the CCW law. A church has to register with the state, to make an exception in the law, in order to establish "Gun Free Zones" in its buildings.

    I decided to go to the BCI website to see what churches felt like it was a good idea to disarm its members. Here is what I found:

    "Houses of Worship Prohibiting Firearms on Premises

    The following churches have notified BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms in their "houses of worship" in Utah.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Instructions for notifying the Bureau of Criminal Identification of your intent to prohibit firearms.

    Read Utah Code 76-10-530 regarding the prohibition of firearms by Utah houses of worship."

    There was only one church on the list! The only church in Utah that feels the need to legally disarm its members is the LDS church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supports "Gun Free Zones", and one can only assume that the leader of the Church, President Monson, also supports "Gun Free Zones".

    I fully understand that the LDS church has the right to determine what happens on their property. Likewise, I have the right to point out how stupid it is to disarm the good members of the Church, and make them sitting ducks for those that intend to do evil.

    The most disgusting thing to me is that the men that made this flawed policy are themselves protected by armed security. How dare they place a greater value on their lives, than the lives of my children and all the other common folk of the Church.

    Sources:

    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...Instructor_New...

    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/CFchurch.html

    https://www.lds.org/handbook/handboo...stering-the-ch...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I tell the same to my students here, who are often getting the UT license in addition to their NV. In NV, the sign (if any) on a church does not have weight of law. In UT, it does, and the church can also register with BCI in lieu of posting a sign. As you mentioned, only the LDS Church has done so.

    I find it odd, myself, considering how patriotic and freedom-loving most Mormons are. But they are also heavily involved in local politics, and, well, a politician is a politician. I'm sure he is only thinking of the children, after all.
    Last edited by MAC702; 12-20-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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    Very interesting, thank you for posting. Time to dig a little deeper locally.

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    Socially, the Mormon Church is an amazing organization, producing some of the most effective and moral human beings.

    From a respect of Liberty standpoint *keeps mouth shut*

    From a theological standpoint *keeps mouth shut*

    In some ways, I have to respect Mormons; in other ways...Well, suffice it to say that I'd never be a Mormon.

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    If you find yourself in a discussion with church leaders over this, just tell them you understand their position that the church building should be a place of peace and safety.

    Then ask them how you're supposed to teleport from your home to the safety of the sanctuary without passing through the dangerous world.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Church Handbook
    ..."Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law."...
    First, this is bullcrap. God's Law is full of practical and terse information on how to live in the cruel world. It was read aloud and taught to children of every age. It was not sugar-coated. Teaching God's Law is not a "haven from the cares and concerns of the world."

    Second, don't some say the same thing about elementary schools?

    Third, if it was inappropriate, it would STILL be inappropriate for police. Period. There is ZERO moral difference in a police officer carrying a sidearm and a civilian carrying a sidearm. ZERO.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Interesting thing about Utah is that while churches that give proper notice are GFZ, a person can carry at schools with the proper paper work filed.
    Last edited by bowb; 12-20-2012 at 08:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowb View Post
    Interesting thing about Utah is that while churches that give proper notice are GFZ, a person can carry at schools with the proper paper work filed.
    Yep, it is a GFZ with a penalty of an "infraction" basically, a traffic violation. You, know how Utahn's obey speed limits! And BCI is prohibited from revoking a Concealed Carry permit for "any single infraction".
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-20-2012 at 10:26 PM.
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    Re: Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    I'm Mormon, not living in Utah and I carry concealed to church. Maybe I should open carry to see what happens. I would love to start some sort of a coalition of Mormon gun owners who would like to get the church to change its policy.

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    Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    thankfully im not part of the religion anymore and they can keep the wards defenseless victim zones...

    if i remember there was a shooting in the daytona beach ward years ago and a friend i knew was killed. i think the guy didnt read the pamphlet on no guns allowed.
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    I'm not sure which I find more objectionable--a church that denies self-defense, or a state that requires a church to register its policy.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    If I read correctly, churches do not have to register to be no-gun. They can post a gun buster sign.


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    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Socially, the Mormon Church is an amazing organization, producing some of the most effective and moral human beings.

    From a respect of Liberty standpoint *keeps mouth shut*

    From a theological standpoint *keeps mouth shut*

    In some ways, I have to respect Mormons; in other ways...Well, suffice it to say that I'd never be a Mormon.
    Im not a religious nutter, but I do know whats written in the Bible, and when religious leaders profess to know more than what God has revealed regarding self defence, and shove this down their bretherns throats, I feel the need to expose them for what they are. They, like many governments like to hold their followers in fear and bondage. If I lived in the USA, and was told my a minister of any church I could not enter the church building armed, I wouldnt enter it, in fact I would immediately leave that church and never go back again.

    The Mormons, it seems make up their own rules concerning their believers safety and self defence. The are obviously not interested in what God has to say regarding self defence? Their god, the god of this world would like to see everyone dissarmed and defenceless. Thats my take on religious interference in matters that should not consern them!

    "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:" (Luke 11:21). "A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring." (Proverbs 25:26).

    Christ was all for self defence, in fact He told His disciples to arm themselves before going out into the big bad world.

    Before Jesus' arrest, Jesus told the disciples that there would be much hostility towards them and they would need protection, for since He would be considered a transgressor, as His followers, they would be considered transgressors.

    Luke 22:35-38
    35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."
    36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
    37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

    I was asked on another site to show one Scripture which taught Christs disciples were ever armed or even had arms?

    V. 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

    Peter struck off the ear of the high priests servant, so He must have been armed.

    " When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear." (Luke 22:49).

    Cheers, Haz.
    When a criminal invades your home and has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.

    My Definition of Gun Control: The idea that dozens of people found dead in the Broadway Café, Tasmania, and many also seriously wounded, all while waiting for police, who were called to show up and protect them, is somehow morally superior to having several armed and therefore alive civilian's explaining to police how the attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    I'm Mormon, not living in Utah and I carry concealed to church. Maybe I should open carry to see what happens. I would love to start some sort of a coalition of Mormon gun owners who would like to get the church to change its policy.

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
    What is preventing you from starting a coalition of Mormon gun owners? Could you be excommunicated or the Mormon equivalent for doing such a thing? I may be misunderstanding and if so please accept my apology in advance. Is it not incumbent upon Mormons to be prepared? If so, I would think that a Mormon must be prepared, even in church.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What is preventing you from starting a coalition of Mormon gun owners? Could you be excommunicated or the Mormon equivalent for doing such a thing? I may be misunderstanding and if so please accept my apology in advance. Is it not incumbent upon Mormons to be prepared? If so, I would think that a Mormon must be prepared, even in church.
    the higher authorities in the church are extremely political, probably the religious equivalent of the NRA...

    and it has been proven in the past that if you do something on your own in the name of the mormon church you do get ex-communicated or "disciplined"...

    they, like all other powerful entities are well funded, so they have their way with things.
    Last edited by PFC HALE; 12-21-2012 at 04:49 PM.
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    Re: Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What is preventing you from starting a coalition of Mormon gun owners? Could you be excommunicated or the Mormon equivalent for doing such a thing? I may be misunderstanding and if so please accept my apology in advance. Is it not incumbent upon Mormons to be prepared? If so, I would think that a Mormon must be prepared, even in church.
    I don't think in this day and age I would get excommunicated. I believe that the church talks a lot about emergency preparedness and food storage but fails to discuss being able to defend what you have stored. In an "end of the world scenario" I'm sure a lot of people who are not prepared will look upon their Mormon neighbors and possibly try to take things by force. I'm all for helping out my neighbor if I can but I'm not going to do that at the expense of my family. Maybe it's time to start a website to get support. Www.Mormonmilita.com?



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    I seem to remember a "Mormon Malitia" in Illinois history.... didn't seem to work out well. But I understand where you are coming from.
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If I read correctly, churches do not have to register to be no-gun. They can post a gun buster sign....
    Correct. A church can post a sign at the door, or personally inform a member, or can simply register with the UT BCI in lieu of those.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Mormon Prophet Supports "Gun Free Zones"

    Then I have no problem with what is happening other than, similarly to my refusing to patronize any business with a no-gun policy, I could not be a member of a church that banned my carry.

    They have the right to tell me that I may not carry on their property just as I have the right to carry. My rights are no more important than theirs.


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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Then I have no problem with what is happening other than, similarly to my refusing to patronize any business with a no-gun policy, I could not be a member of a church that banned my carry.

    They have the right to tell me that I may not carry on their property just as I have the right to carry. My rights are no more important than theirs...
    Except that with private property like businesses, they can only trespass you. In Utah, carrying in a church or private residence after knowing their policy (or failing to check if registered with BCI) is an actual weapons infraction.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Hartman View Post
    I've always thought that the only people "Gun Free Zones" really benefit are homicidal maniacs. I was unpleasantly surprised to find out that my church, the LDS Church, actually supports "Gun Free Zones". Not only that, but the Church actively goes out of its way to legally make sure that those attending services in LDS buildings in Utah are prohibited from defending themselves with firearms.

    I started looking into this when I heard a local church leader talking about the shooting in Connecticut, and he mentioned in passing that we shouldn't bring guns to church. He kind of chuckled after he said this so I thought he might of been joking. I decided to go to the Church Handbook of Instructions and find out if there is an official position on this issue. This is what I found:
    There have been shootings in several of the "mainstream" churches over the past few years. The Prophet's accurate point is clearly that the LDS church buildings are "...dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world." However... these acts of massive violence are not the works of God-fearing men, They are the actions of men with evil in their hearts and minds (perhaps under the influence of The Adversary). The LDS Church is considered by many people to be a "cult" (perhaps because of the additional influence of the BoM), and therefore not under the grace or protection of God. Given the sum of those circumstances, I would be surprised if the LDS churches were not prime targets for the violent acts of some lunatic(s) - although such acts may be less likely here in Utah. Those children were righteous souls, yet they were taken, and their families were left to suffer pain and grief. But... that's just the way my mind works when dealing with puzzles. My personal philosophy since reaching adulthood, has always been one of, "It is better to be prepared, than to be taken by surprise". It is a philosophy which - by the unexplainable, heinous actions of men - has been reinforced many times in the last 40 years. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 12-22-2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If I read correctly, churches do not have to register to be no-gun. They can post a gun buster sign.


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    Correct. However, if they notify by certain other means, whether only by those certain other means or in combination with a sign, etc. then they must register. Notice that if a church leader announces it to his congregation, then he must register.

    Excerpts from the statute:

    (4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.

    Here are 2c, 2d, and 2e that give the situations in which the church must register:

    (c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
    (d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
    (e) publication:
    (i) in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state; and
    (ii) as required in Section 45-1-101. (refers to statute on requirements for what counts as "published" for legal purposes. --Citizen)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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