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Thread: NRA calls for armed guards in schools

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    NRA calls for armed guards in schools

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...r-gun-control/

    While I'd prefer to have a lot of separate teachers trained and armed as licensed LEOs, as well as volunteer parents who meet training criteria patrolling schools, this isn't a terrible idea either, though it costs a lot more than teachers and volunteers.

    I wonder if the MSM will acknowledge that the only way to protect schools is stop making them into giant targets by advertising to everyone that no one there has a gun to stop a gun-toting maniac.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I was watching the conference, and while I agree the best solution would be to eliminate GFZs entirely and allow teachers to arm themselves to defend their students, this is realistic where, unfortunately, in a country full of hopolophobes, that is not. I liked how they didn't defend gun ownership, but went on the attack of how stupid it was to keep everyone disarmed at schools. They have an answer, whereas the libs only have knee-jerk reactions that will solve nothing. As usual.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Let teachers, administrators and parents who choose to be armed and are qualified carry at the schools. Repeal the gun free zones. And reinforce the cockpit doors.

    Adding 'police' to schools to provide armed security will only add to the police state that is already underway. Ask your high school student how many rights are already abused when school district police are on campus now. Clear violations of the 4th and 5th amendments already exist in many schools. Having a 'police officer' stand around in the school will just lead to more proactive police work that infringes upon our children's rights.
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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    I know WA isn't the only place with a huge budget problem, most places are still lingering in the recession.

    In the long run it's potentially cheaper to train and arm most/all teachers and school admins rather than hire additional guard personnel. The exposure of students to responsible armed role models in the forms of their teachers will also be a long-term cultural plus for the reasons that Gogodawgs stated above.

    Also, from a tactical standpoint, having a few armed guards in a school is not as good as having many armed teachers and admins who are everywhere. Even with secure access points, if someone manages to sneak in, it will take the guards time to get to the crises. Whereas having many teachers and admins spread out will yield fast response time.
    Last edited by Alpine; 12-21-2012 at 12:49 PM.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Just remove teh GFSZ for teachers, staff, and citizens and they are way less attractive. There will still be theaters and other private places that proudly proclaim their Gun free status, let them draw the madmen and glory seekers.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    I know WA isn't the only place with a huge budget problem, most places are still lingering in the recession.

    In the long run it's potentially cheaper to train and arm most/all teachers and school admins rather than hire additional guard personnel. The exposure of students to responsible armed role models in the forms of their teachers will also be a long-term cultural plus for the reasons that Gogodawgs stated above.

    Also, from a tactical standpoint, having a few armed guards in a school is not as good as having many armed teachers and admins who are everywhere. Even with secure access points, if someone manages to sneak in, it will take the guards time to get to the crises. Whereas having many teachers and admins spread out will yield fast response time.
    The problem I see with this is a matter of training and mindset.

    Training:
    We would have to set up the training where the teachers lock the classrooms down and fortify against an attacker if something happened. Having only a few non-classroom bound administrators who will search for an active shooter in a team rather than have all the teachers hitting the hallways, nervously popping shots at anything that moves. I don't think you can train enough teachers well enough to have them keep their wits about them to go search for a shooter.

    I'm all for giving any teacher the option to have a gun handy while teaching if they are willing to undergo the background checks and training, but training, training and more training will be key to get parents to sign off on such an idea. God help us the first time any teacher hits a student while defending against an active shooter.

    Mindset:
    Most of our public schools are not a battle zone, and nothing even closely resembling this will happen in the mass majority of them. That said, most places will never "actively" arm teachers and administrators en-mass. Its not feasible in the current culture of this country, and the NRA know this. At best, you would likely see this done in the form of lock boxes placed in the trained teachers classroom. I think most of our public school teachers would opt out of such a program anyway, making huge gaps in classroom coverage. The current firearms culture in the US would never stand for teachers "packing" daily in our public schools, and there is no way you could make such a thing compulsory. I wouldn't even support compulsory carry.

    Hell, we don't even carry firearms as teachers in the military, nor are they available in any way in the case of an active shooter scenario. We have to rely on first responders the same as anyone else. The only exception to this is during firearms training where all instructors carry "locked and loaded", just in case.

    Ultimately it comes down to mindset and culture. I personally understand that these tragedies will continue happen regardless of gun availability (as they have around the world), and I am willing to accept the concept that a shootout is better than a massacre, but right now, the majority of our fellow Americans are not anywhere near that understanding or acceptance.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Let teachers, administrators and parents who choose to be armed and are qualified carry at the schools. Repeal the gun free zones. And reinforce the cockpit doors.

    Adding 'police' to schools to provide armed security will only add to the police state that is already underway. Ask your high school student how many rights are already abused when school district police are on campus now. Clear violations of the 4th and 5th amendments already exist in many schools. Having a 'police officer' stand around in the school will just lead to more proactive police work that infringes upon our children's rights.
    QFT, but will say we are already a police state. We are watched and tracked in ways Hitler or Stalin or Mao would have never dreamed of.

    I don't think many teachers will get guns this would go against the active indoctrination they are doing.

    The best answer is stop stealing money for schools and make people be responsible for their own education, and those who can't charities will provide.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I don't think many teachers will get guns this would go against the active indoctrination they are doing.
    You may remember this one from Oregon just a couple of years ago:

    http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/2007/...g-gun-to-work/

    Since the teachers have the time to lock the doors they would have time to unlock a small safe too. Have the kids lie on the floor facing away from the door with their hands over their ears.

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    Regular Member aa1911's Avatar
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    I don't see it happening but I would like to see the GFZ crap stop. Every mass shooting happens in GFZ's, so let us eliminate that factor!!

    If a teacher has their CCW, then allow them their constitutional right to carry a freakin' gun, why does it give people the willies when guns get near kids?

    I can carry open and concealed at a playground or any number of other places where there's lots of kids. why should schools be any different?

    banning or restricting guns won't do anything positive. infringing and stomping on our liberty won't work. building schools like prisons won't work. psych testing to get guns will not work. Calling for the president of the NRA to be assassinated is insane. there's no money for dedicated police or armed guards.

    so we eliminate the GFZ which costs nothing and levels the playing field so to speak. and puts us one step closer to our constitution, a document I find to be absolute even in today's world but something this new generation is comfortable with crapping on.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    QFT, but will say we are already a police state. We are watched and tracked in ways Hitler or Stalin or Mao would have never dreamed of.

    I don't think many teachers will get guns this would go against the active indoctrination they are doing.

    The best answer is stop stealing money for schools and make people be responsible for their own education, and those who can't charities will provide.
    And I'm sure you were educated with no US tax dollars whatsoever...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa1911 View Post
    I don't see it happening but I would like to see the GFZ crap stop. Every mass shooting happens in GFZ's, so let us eliminate that factor!!

    If a teacher has their CCW, then allow them their constitutional right to carry a freakin' gun, why does it give people the willies when guns get near kids?

    I can carry open and concealed at a playground or any number of other places where there's lots of kids. why should schools be any different?

    banning or restricting guns won't do anything positive. infringing and stomping on our liberty won't work. building schools like prisons won't work. psych testing to get guns will not work. Calling for the president of the NRA to be assassinated is insane. there's no money for dedicated police or armed guards.

    so we eliminate the GFZ which costs nothing and levels the playing field so to speak. and puts us one step closer to our constitution, a document I find to be absolute even in today's world but something this new generation is comfortable with crapping on.
    Because an employer has traditionally always had the right to determine if their employees were armed on the job...

    just look at the liability it would create if a teacher shot some student, I'm sure that would be a 7 figure settlement right there. Repeal GFSZA for the LACs who are parents or volunteers or carefully screened employees who may be authorized to carry. but I don't want every school staff person armed. First off I know at least three staff employees at my previous high school who maybe aren't exactly stable.

    and the sentiment is all for nothing, Schools are one of the safest places kids can be. school shootings are not particularily common. The reason shopping malls and theatres and schools are selected as targets have to do entirely with masses of people at one spot making for a convienent target. many mass killings or string killings have occured where guns are lawfully allowed. the number of citizens in this state licensed to carry is so proportionally low that if a shooter rolls the dice on shooting up a safeway grocery store chances are there will be no LACs carrying in the store.

    Yes the GFSZA needs to be repealed for 10th amendment reasons, but I hardly think the next step is arming every single school staff... 90% of them are likely ideologically opposed to the idea anyway, and of those who are sympathetic they may not choose to carry anyway.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    And I'm sure you were educated with no US tax dollars whatsoever...
    Fallacy strawman argument. I also grew up with a welfare anti gun mother. I left that situation as soon as I could.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 12-23-2012 at 07:51 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    And I'm sure you were educated with no US tax dollars whatsoever...
    Tax dollars, that were appropriated FROM the people, then used "for" them...so what are you trying to say? US tax dollars do not fall from the sky. Though I did hear a rumor that they can if you give Ben Bernake a green marker and a roll of toilet paper...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Tax dollars, that were appropriated FROM the people, then used "for" them...so what are you trying to say? US tax dollars do not fall from the sky. Though I did hear a rumor that they can if you give Ben Bernake a green marker and a roll of toilet paper...
    +1

    Schools have become for many a babysitting arrangement. Many send their kids to school because they feels since the money is already stolen from them they can't afford to pay for that and private school. I was amazed at the amount of people though in Hawaii, even in lower incomes who work hard to send their kids to private schools, they realize the public ones fail their children.

    Also state laws (written with the help of union teachers) mandating aspects of children's education make it difficult.

    So many people cry and wail about how to make schools safe from mad men, when the answer is simply stop the laws that create these moral hazards. GFZ's, mandated public education, how many murders in this country are done by fellow students, who use schools as a social club or a place to facilitate gang warfare and drug dealing? Of course much of this is again moral hazards created by statism.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    And I'm sure you were educated with no US tax dollars whatsoever...
    What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing.

    An attempt at a juvenile straw man argument.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    +1

    Schools have become for many a babysitting arrangement. Many send their kids to school because they feels since the money is already stolen from them they can't afford to pay for that and private school. I was amazed at the amount of people though in Hawaii, even in lower incomes who work hard to send their kids to private schools, they realize the public ones fail their children.

    Also state laws (written with the help of union teachers) mandating aspects of children's education make it difficult.

    So many people cry and wail about how to make schools safe from mad men, when the answer is simply stop the laws that create these moral hazards. GFZ's, mandated public education, how many murders in this country are done by fellow students, who use schools as a social club or a place to facilitate gang warfare and drug dealing? Of course much of this is again moral hazards created by statism.
    Well I guess if we had no laws we'd also have no crime and no problems with it huh?

    Public education is not mandated you have the freedom to use a private school or homeschool.

    I suppose you honestly believe a 6 year old should have to knock on doors for handouts if they want to go to kindergarten huh? What if hypothetically, you have a 6 year old who's capable of understanding the value of education, and no one will donate to them? And their parents don't care? You going to leave them out in the cold? Never get education that's nessecary to function in modern society... So forever they're kept below the rest of society with no chance whatsoever to get out of such a situation. Of course you call this freedom, that kid shouldn't be bitching the free market will take care of him, and if he dies because irresponsible parents won't feed him and there is no foster system funded by big evil tax dollars then he's even more free!

    Now let me predict the future, you'll come back with some vague argument about how government only makes things worse, maybe throw one or two examples of how the system failed a minority of people, and then draw a hasty conclusion about how the solution is to completely throw the system to the ground and let "charities" provide for everyone just like they provided for Ron Paul's campaign manager.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post

    An attempt at a juvenile straw man argument AGAIN.

    There I fixed it for you!

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    LoL - So i find it funny that it was president clinton who first pushed cops in schools

    http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/news/mn-20323

    But since it's the NRA saying it today, well, it has to be crazy right?
    - The bleeting has gotten very loud on media reader comments.


    from the article:
    "April 2000: Clinton also unveiled the $60-million fifth round of funding for "COPS in School," a Justice Department program that helps pay the costs of placing police officers in schools to help make them safer for students and teachers. The money will be used to provide 452 officers in schools in more than 220 communities.
    "Already, it has placed 2,200 officers in more than 1,000 communities across our nation, where they are heightening school safety as well as coaching sports and acting as mentors and mediators for kids in need," Clinton said. "
    Last edited by Batousaii; 12-23-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I guess if we had no laws we'd also have no crime and no problems with it huh?
    Didn't say that did I? But how have the laws you love so much prevented what happened?

    Public education is not mandated you have the freedom to use a private school or homeschool.
    It is mandated, you are allowed to if you meet certain requirements to choose another path, you are not allowed to stop the theft of your money for an education system that is failing. An allowance is not a freedom of choice, this shows your statists thinking.

    Your last few sentences don't even deserve a response. You build your argument on a house of cards, when a few cards are pulled out you simply can't accept that, so you resort to demagoguery.

    I say Kudos individuals like Brewster and his wife who do what they can to remove their children from the state propaganda education system. They don't need a cop at their house they are armed, I bet their children will by pass the general population in academic knowledge and will understand and respect what liberty and freedom are about.

    Putting armed gaurds and police men in school as Nick so well pointed out will like most government solutions will cause more problems than it solves and likely will not prevent further tragedies
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 12-24-2012 at 10:13 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    NRA calls for armed guards in schools

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I guess if we had no laws we'd also have no crime and no problems with it huh?

    Public education is not mandated you have the freedom to use a private school or homeschool.

    I suppose you honestly believe a 6 year old should have to knock on doors for handouts if they want to go to kindergarten huh? What if hypothetically, you have a 6 year old who's capable of understanding the value of education, and no one will donate to them? And their parents don't care? You going to leave them out in the cold? Never get education that's nessecary to function in modern society... So forever they're kept below the rest of society with no chance whatsoever to get out of such a situation. Of course you call this freedom, that kid shouldn't be bitching the free market will take care of him, and if he dies because irresponsible parents won't feed him and there is no foster system funded by big evil tax dollars then he's even more free!

    Now let me predict the future, you'll come back with some vague argument about how government only makes things worse, maybe throw one or two examples of how the system failed a minority of people, and then draw a hasty conclusion about how the solution is to completely throw the system to the ground and let "charities" provide for everyone just like they provided for Ron Paul's campaign manager.
    Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

    Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

    The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

    Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

    The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.
    +1 +

    It truly is a shame that most Liberals in Government always want to claim that more Government is the answer, that only government can be responsible, or can do the job.

    Just like our outgoing Governor is proposing New Taxes and Funding Cuts supposedly to balance things out, but what did she do that will totally negate all that, she is creating a New Government Agency to bleed our States coffers of any of the benefits created by the Tax increases and Funding Cuts.


    The Absurdity of the liberals in Government never ends.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

    Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

    The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.

    Government is not a private entity, and very little that government does has a direct counterpart in private business. A public school must enroll anyone regardless of ability to pay. A private school is free to deny enrollment to anyone and doesn't have to keep people enrolled. So government shuts down every public school, now what? Unless the government provides vouchers to everyone then private schools will simply not enroll students whose parents cannot pay. Charities will not function either unless people are going to donate to reputable charities at the same or a greater rate that they were previously taxed. Not likely

    The postal service must deliver letters to rural areas and urban areas for the same fee. How much to you think FedEx will charge to deliver a letter to rural montana? Certainly more then 44 cents and that's if they'll deliver it at any price.

    Amtrak must serve rural communities on the same fare schedule as the dense, profitable urban corridors.

    Do you think a private business would build a road to Kettle Falls WA? No way money could be made doing that. Even Internet, a lot of the high speed connections and fiber optic cables in rural areas were installed with government grants becuase private businesses didn't consider it profitable.

    The government is much less effecient yes, but that's becuase they're not a private entity and in the end have to make decisions beneficial to more then just the people with the deepest pockets
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

    Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

    The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.
    +1 His whole house of arguments are built on propaganda and false history. He has a blind eye concerning government and will refuse to see the other side of the coin.

    Armed guards or police in schools are not the solution when the schools are the problem.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 12-24-2012 at 08:16 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    +1 His whole house of arguments are built on propaganda and false history. He has a blind eye concerning government and will refuse to see the other side of the coin.

    Armed guards or police in schools are not the solution when the schools are the problem.

    That's pretty interesting considering your only response to me pointing out problems with your thinking is to recite another sales brochure for your brand of anarchy.... Or accuse me of misrepresenting you without ever explaining what I misrepresented.

    Why don't you tell me hOw your anarcho society would prevent a socialist takeover when your charity idea doesn't work and a permanent subclass of people who finally get fed up, your accusing me of not understanding history is laughable becuase to support your philosophy as viable you need to ignore over 90% of human history
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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