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NRA calls for armed guards in schools

tombrewster421

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Well I guess if we had no laws we'd also have no crime and no problems with it huh?

Public education is not mandated you have the freedom to use a private school or homeschool.

I suppose you honestly believe a 6 year old should have to knock on doors for handouts if they want to go to kindergarten huh? What if hypothetically, you have a 6 year old who's capable of understanding the value of education, and no one will donate to them? And their parents don't care? You going to leave them out in the cold? Never get education that's nessecary to function in modern society... So forever they're kept below the rest of society with no chance whatsoever to get out of such a situation. Of course you call this freedom, that kid shouldn't be bitching the free market will take care of him, and if he dies because irresponsible parents won't feed him and there is no foster system funded by big evil tax dollars then he's even more free!

Now let me predict the future, you'll come back with some vague argument about how government only makes things worse, maybe throw one or two examples of how the system failed a minority of people, and then draw a hasty conclusion about how the solution is to completely throw the system to the ground and let "charities" provide for everyone just like they provided for Ron Paul's campaign manager.

Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.
 

LkWd_Don

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Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.

+1 +

It truly is a shame that most Liberals in Government always want to claim that more Government is the answer, that only government can be responsible, or can do the job.

Just like our outgoing Governor is proposing New Taxes and Funding Cuts supposedly to balance things out, but what did she do that will totally negate all that, she is creating a New Government Agency to bleed our States coffers of any of the benefits created by the Tax increases and Funding Cuts.


The Absurdity of the liberals in Government never ends.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.


Government is not a private entity, and very little that government does has a direct counterpart in private business. A public school must enroll anyone regardless of ability to pay. A private school is free to deny enrollment to anyone and doesn't have to keep people enrolled. So government shuts down every public school, now what? Unless the government provides vouchers to everyone then private schools will simply not enroll students whose parents cannot pay. Charities will not function either unless people are going to donate to reputable charities at the same or a greater rate that they were previously taxed. Not likely

The postal service must deliver letters to rural areas and urban areas for the same fee. How much to you think FedEx will charge to deliver a letter to rural montana? Certainly more then 44 cents and that's if they'll deliver it at any price.

Amtrak must serve rural communities on the same fare schedule as the dense, profitable urban corridors.

Do you think a private business would build a road to Kettle Falls WA? No way money could be made doing that. Even Internet, a lot of the high speed connections and fiber optic cables in rural areas were installed with government grants becuase private businesses didn't consider it profitable.

The government is much less effecient yes, but that's becuase they're not a private entity and in the end have to make decisions beneficial to more then just the people with the deepest pockets
 

sudden valley gunner

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Well here's the thing, private sector will NOT step up and fill the gap until there is a gap to be filled. When the gov gives up its monopoly on education, others will take over.

Just name me ONE government agency that spends less money than a privately owned counterpart. The gov overpays for absolutely everything and creates even more middle men to take their cut of our tax dollars.

The gov will never be as efficient as a business that actually has to balance a budget to survive. When the gov spends too much in one area that's unnecessary they just threaten to cut funding where it's needed like schools, police and fire in order to raise taxes.

+1 His whole house of arguments are built on propaganda and false history. He has a blind eye concerning government and will refuse to see the other side of the coin.

Armed guards or police in schools are not the solution when the schools are the problem.
 
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EMNofSeattle

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+1 His whole house of arguments are built on propaganda and false history. He has a blind eye concerning government and will refuse to see the other side of the coin.

Armed guards or police in schools are not the solution when the schools are the problem.


That's pretty interesting considering your only response to me pointing out problems with your thinking is to recite another sales brochure for your brand of anarchy.... Or accuse me of misrepresenting you without ever explaining what I misrepresented.

Why don't you tell me hOw your anarcho society would prevent a socialist takeover when your charity idea doesn't work and a permanent subclass of people who finally get fed up, your accusing me of not understanding history is laughable becuase to support your philosophy as viable you need to ignore over 90% of human history
 

sudden valley gunner

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That's pretty interesting considering your only response to me pointing out problems with your thinking is to recite another sales brochure for your brand of anarchy.... Or accuse me of misrepresenting you without ever explaining what I misrepresented.

Why don't you tell me hOw your anarcho society would prevent a socialist takeover when your charity idea doesn't work and a permanent subclass of people who finally get fed up, your accusing me of not understanding history is laughable becuase to support your philosophy as viable you need to ignore over 90% of human history


I didn't say you misrepresented me although you did in this very post. I simply point out your strawman arguments when I see them.

I didn't reply back to you because it is way off topic. Since you lack basic understanding of anarchism or socialism and eagerly want socialism, there really is no sense in debating you much. It's like trying to undo someones algebra who hasn't even grasped fundamental arithmetic.

Bring it to the social lounge and I may debunk every single example you have given just like you are constantly debunked in the social lounge. That is why you resort to demagoguery and appeals to emotion instead of logic.
 
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amzbrady

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Marysville, Washington, USA
I am for Concealed carry in schools, Teachers should be background checked every year. This would also eliminate some of the sexual preditors and felons in our schools around our kids.
 

Dave_pro2a

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That's pretty interesting considering your only response to me pointing out problems with your thinking is to recite another sales brochure for your brand of anarchy.... Or accuse me of misrepresenting you without ever explaining what I misrepresented.

Why don't you tell me hOw your anarcho society would prevent a socialist takeover when your charity idea doesn't work and a permanent subclass of people who finally get fed up, your accusing me of not understanding history is laughable becuase to support your philosophy as viable you need to ignore over 90% of human history

Yes, that is how America started. Some philisophers ignored 90% of human history (Divine Rights of Kings) and instead postulated a divine source for Individual Rights.

Go read some Locke, positive and negative natural rights. That's what SVG is talking about, imho, and he's correct.
 

LkWd_Don

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~~ snipped ~~ That is why you resort to demagoguery and appeals to emotion instead of logic.

SVG, though I can understand where you are coming from.

Do you really wish to give him that much credit?

Do you consider him a leader who is using popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain a greater position?

As this is an easy way to define it: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demagoguery

I will admit that the childrens difinition may fit what you were saying better.
http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?book=Student&va=demagogue

:D
 

sudden valley gunner

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SVG, though I can understand where you are coming from.

Do you really wish to give him that much credit?

Do you consider him a leader who is using popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain a greater position?

As this is an easy way to define it: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demagoguery

I will admit that the childrens difinition may fit what you were saying better.
http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?book=Student&va=demagogue

:D

Correct :lol: I was using the not as often used definition of acting like or using the methods of.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demagoguery
 

sudden valley gunner

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Yes, that is how America started. Some philisophers ignored 90% of human history (Divine Rights of Kings) and instead postulated a divine source for Individual Rights.

Go read some Locke, positive and negative natural rights. That's what SVG is talking about, imho, and he's correct.

Public school is not education, it is government indoctrination. Big difference.

Good posts. I can tell you prefer knowledge over government education. ;)

Just a few of the reasons we should keep cops out of school...


http://lewrockwell.com/rep3/young-children-brutalized-by-police.html
 

EMNofSeattle

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Yes, that is how America started. Some philisophers ignored 90% of human history (Divine Rights of Kings) and instead postulated a divine source for Individual Rights.

Go read some Locke, positive and negative natural rights. That's what SVG is talking about, imho, and he's correct.

Really, where did the founding fathers decide that no one should have to pay taxes? John Locke doesn't matter, he didn't write the constitution, he didn't ratify it, and he didn't have anything to do with it, if his work hadn't been partially used for the US Constitution then no one outside of small academic circles would be aware he even existed.

But lets talk about John Locke

in fact lets quote him
out of His own writings

§ 42. But we know God hath not left one Man so to the Mercy of another, that he may starve him if he please: God the Lord and Father of all, has given no one of his Children such a Property, in his peculiar Portion of the things of this World, but that he has given his needy Brother a Right to the Surplusage of his Goods; so that it cannot justly be denyed him, when his pressing Wants call for it. And therefore no Man could ever have a just Power over the Life of another, by Right of property in Land or Possessions; since 'twould always be a Sin in any Man of Estate, to let his Brother perish for want of affording him Relief out of his Plenty. As Justice gives every Man a Title to the product of his honest Industry, and the fair Acquisitions of his Ancestors descended to him; so Charity gives every Man a Title to so much out of another's Plenty, as will keep him from extream want, where he has no means to subsist otherwise

Hmmmm sounds a little like


Socialism!

Because Locke also says "unused property is a crime against nature"


In fact, there is no "right" to property, a central tenant among the Austrian School is the right to use of your own property, except property only exists because of the state. it's otherwise an imaginary concept. a 19th century philosopher named Pierre Proudhon made a logical proof that property only exists in the imagination.

Try reading Proudhon's work "What is Property" and specifically chapter 4 "property is impossible". The central gist is of course that a property owner is simply a thief and extorter, because in the case of farm fields, they occupy empty fields and demand rent of tenants and demand the fruits of their labor. with no state a rich landowner could make no such claim. therefore without the state property ownership is impossible and only an imaginary concept.

This is vastly oversimplifying an incredibly overdetailed piece of work.
 
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Dave_pro2a

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Really, where did the founding fathers decide that no one should have to pay taxes? John Locke doesn't matter, he didn't write the constitution, he didn't ratify it, and he didn't have anything to do with it, if his work hadn't been partially used for the US Constitution then no one outside of small academic circles would be aware he even existed.

But lets talk about John Locke

in fact lets quote him
out of His own writings



Hmmmm sounds a little like


Socialism!

No he doesn't.

You have a serious lack of understanding on this topic.
 

EMNofSeattle

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No he doesn't.

You have a serious lack of understanding on this topic.

You mean I read the part you glossed over?

What does it mean that the the lower brother is entitled to the other's surplusses?

explain what that means? When unused property is a "crime against nature" as Locke himself wrote, what does that mean?

why don't you assist my understanding of the topic, explain what these passages mean.


And explain to me why property even exists as a right? what is a "natural right"? if things like property ownership was a natural right then why doesn't everyone in the world own property?

There is no such thing as a "natural right" if a right were natural everyone by nature of existing would have it. If it were a right it would be unrevocable.
 

Vitaeus

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Umm, Locke was talking about how a moral man chooses to give Charity to those less fortunate, he was not talking about Government redistributing tax money or any money extorted by the threat of force from the prosperous, you highlighted the wrong sections of that passage.

Charity has been redefined lately as giving a portion unto Caesar for him to do good works with. It used to mean that after you took care of You and Yours, you gave someone less fortunate a hand up to show grace and a desire to choose to be generous.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Umm, Locke was talking about how a moral man chooses to give Charity to those less fortunate, he was not talking about Government redistributing tax money or any money extorted by the threat of force from the prosperous, you highlighted the wrong sections of that passage.

Charity has been redefined lately as giving a portion unto Caesar for him to do good works with. It used to mean that after you took care of You and Yours, you gave someone less fortunate a hand up to show grace and a desire to choose to be generous.

look at this first line

But we know God hath not left one Man so to the Mercy of another, that he may starve him if he please: God the Lord and Father of all, has given no one of his Children such a Property

Now if God is God, and thus the almighty creator, his edicts are to be obeyed, without question.

so when Locke is writing of the weaker brother entitled to the surpluses of his neighbor, that means that. the crack smoking junkie living on the end of your street, if he is starving, would be ENTITLED to come into your house and take YOUR surplusses to sustain himself. that's exactly what that means. in that sense is property truly yours in that case? no then it belongs to everyone in your community.

Which is exactly why I don't take Locke's ideas as gospel, he outright said you are obligated to provide. an obligation is not charity in the sense that it is not a voluntary donation. The crack dealer down the road has a Title to so much out of another's Plenty, as will keep him from extream want, where he has no means to subsist otherwise Title means he owns it and is obligated to its use. hardly the same as charity.


If we want to talk enlightment philosophy in regards to property we'll also need to discuss The works of the many socialists souch as Pierre Proudhon who's slogan was "property is theft" (which I certainly do not agree with, but his writings are equally valid with Locke's) or Malthus's economic theory which was part in parcel with the Mercantile theory of economics.

The point being, putting the word "divine" or "natural" in your works doesn't make it so. if rights were truly divinely given everyone in the world would be entitled to irrevocable rights by nature of existing. If rights were Divine and God was the source of such rights then despots would be struck down for defying god's edicts. if rights were natural no one would think of denying them to anyone.

so we have a wonderful story in philosophy, but in reality what we have is rights are constitutional, they're granted by social contract, and one that's not hard to modify at that. look up what happened to the japanese in WW2, american citizens who just happened to have parents from the wrong country, where was their right to an attorney? or right to a trial? or yada yada, the only right there were given was "Right this way" at bayonet point. there's your god-given rights right there.

So instead of making pointless arguments using philosophers who've been dead for centuries, it's time to have the real discussion over where our "rights" stand today then work to defend that baseline, becuase God or "Nature" is not going to stand up for your rights. We've had far too many real rights lost while people have been yapping over stuff like public schools, people are going to read people like SVG who blames the existence of public schools on kids getting shot at school and right away they'll tune out anything else he says and allow our "rights" to be taken away because they'll associate rights with people who blame the cold blooded murder of scores of children on the existence of schools.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Umm, Locke was talking about how a moral man chooses to give Charity to those less fortunate, he was not talking about Government redistributing tax money or any money extorted by the threat of force from the prosperous, you highlighted the wrong sections of that passage.

Charity has been redefined lately as giving a portion unto Caesar for him to do good works with. It used to mean that after you took care of You and Yours, you gave someone less fortunate a hand up to show grace and a desire to choose to be generous.

This dude gets it. I have a moral obligation to myself, to give to the needy. There's a limitation on that and a correlating right to steal (also with a limitation).

EMNofSeattle, it's not too late for you to buy an educational experience. You might not eat, but you could a least buy a seat at the dinner table of knowledge.
 
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