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Thread: The NRA speech, Virginia, and the VCDL

  1. #1
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    The NRA speech, Virginia, and the VCDL

    In my estimation, the NRA's approach present in their recent speech is an intelligent one.

    Remember how politics works... Compromise and negotiation may sound like dirty words, but they always take place before a bill becomes law.

    The genius of the approach the NRA has taken lies, in part, in changing the subject of the conversation. Now, when talking compromise, we can talk about how many armed people should be protecting our schoolchildren, how we pay for it (which is where armed citizenry [my preference] vs police enters the conversation), and so on.

    Soccer moms scream, "We have to act now!" Now, we can reply (with equal emotion) that we agree, and discuss whether police, armed parents, or both should be the on-site protection.

    Soccer moms scream, "We need gun control!" Now, we can point instead (with irrefutable logic) to a national discussion on a solution to yield actual protection, and suggest she focus on helping to address the problem instead of attacking the parents' civil rights.

    Soccer moms scream, "Guns are evil!" Now, we can point instead to a national discussion on the evil of glorifying criminal violence through entertainment. (No one is suggesting banning media, gamers.)

    Now, though we may not agree with everything in the speech, we have a rallying point. This can be referenced in our calls and e-mails to our elected representatives, when we make our reasoned points not solely as reactionaries, but as constituents seeking solutions.

    Of course, I'll remind these representatives that I'm a gun owner, and I vote on the basis of their respect for those rights.

    To expand on one point, now that the conversation has turned, in part, to good guys with guns protecting our children, we can discuss the best way to do it.

    Though discussed at the federal level, I expect anything that's implemented will vary greatly be state.

    Repressive states like NJ, MD, or CA will likely continue to reject addition protection, preferring the status quo that brought us the tragedy in CT. Freer states (I hope VA is among them) may decide that armed protection from school admin/teachers/parents, who are already in the schools, through eliminating laws preventing carry in schools, is a better approach in terms of both finances and reduced Federal Government intrusion.

    I certainly don't steer VCDL, but I hope no VCDL energy is expended on criticism of the NRA. Instead, take advantage of their changing the conversation, mention the points of agreement (armed good guys is WIN, gun control is FAIL), and work to implement a better variation of the NRA's concept in our Commonwealth.

    Like I mentioned, hopefully in VA we can push for
    armed protection provided by school admin/teachers/parents, who are already in the schools. We can eliminate laws preventing carry in schools. In my opinion, this is a better approach than doubling the number of police, in terms of both finances and reduced centralized Government intrusion.

    I'd like an end state of teachers, admin, and parents being able to carry
    in our schools as they see fit, including mode (open or concealed). Perhaps we can get closer to that end state in VA. That's what I plan to work for.



  2. #2
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    I agree with DrMark.

    I watched the NRA press conference yesterday on MSNBC, which only aired LaPierre's speech and followed it with the expected bashing by their team of "analysts".

    I also watched Night Line's interview with Mayor Bloomberg (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/). Cynthia McFadden did an excellent job of bringing the contradictions of gun control to him. I found it especially pleasing that she asked him about the appropriateness of his armed escorts in the face of his stand on guns in the hands of citizens. He replied "Of course." She also corrected him on his description of the assault rifles he wants to ban (and that he apparently thinks everyone owns) as being guns that continuously fired with a single pull of the trigger. (NB: While he described what we define as "assault rifles", he clearly erred in applying that description to the guns he's trying to ban.) The program also had clips from victims and their families of mass shootings. Didn't have any from victims or families who complained about being attacked in a gun free zone.

    No one interviewed wants a repeat of Sandy Hook, but there is a strong disagreement about how to accomplish this.

    This will be a tough fight to retain the rights we have now, even in Virginia.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post

    This will be a tough fight to retain the rights we have now, even in Virginia.
    Its especially going to be hard with all the lies the media is selling to the public about the AR15. If I didn't know any better just from watching CNN I'd think that the AR15 is the same fully auto machine gun rifle that the military uses.

    There needs to be a debate like the republican and democrat presidential candidates have. The anti-gunners can get up there an make up lies and show their ignorance, then the NRA needs to set them straight and point out to the public what the true facts really are.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaGunTrader View Post
    Its especially going to be hard with all the lies the media is selling to the public about the AR15. If I didn't know any better just from watching CNN I'd think that the AR15 is the same fully auto machine gun rifle that the military uses.

    There needs to be a debate like the republican and democrat presidential candidates have. The anti-gunners can get up there an make up lies and show their ignorance, then the NRA needs to set them straight and point out to the public what the true facts really are.
    The NRA skirted the meat of this. I'm not sure if that's good or bad but they certainly didn't take a hard stand on the BS.
    The hardest one to swallow is all the hoopla about the mythical gunshow loophole that had nothing to do with the shootings.

    Then the AR hysteria and if there's any truth to this, he didn't even use an AR:

    Last edited by peter nap; 12-23-2012 at 07:17 PM.

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    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The NRA skirted the meat of this. I'm not sure if that's good or bad but they certainly didn't take a hard stand on the BS.
    The hardest one to swallow is all the hoopla about the mythical gunshow loophole that had nothing to do with the shootings.

    Then the AR hysteria and if there's any truth to this, he didn't even use an AR:

    According to the governments own figures, gun show sales (private) account for less than 1% of sales. Doesn't sound like a loophole to me more like the eye of a needle.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    http://www.france24.com/en/20121223-...no-gun-control

    The NRA, the most powerful gun lobby in the United States, ruled out any support Sunday for greater regulation of firearms or ammunition magazines

    "I think that is a phony piece of legislation, and I do not believe it will pass for this reason," LaPierre told NBC's "Meet the Press." "It is all built on lies that have been found out."
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    http://www.france24.com/en/20121223-...no-gun-control

    The NRA, the most powerful gun lobby in the United States, ruled out any support Sunday for greater regulation of firearms or ammunition magazines

    "I think that is a phony piece of legislation, and I do not believe it will pass for this reason," LaPierre told NBC's "Meet the Press." "It is all built on lies that have been found out."
    Thanks for the link Marco.
    I feel a little better now that they're looking it in the eye.

  8. #8
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    deport Piers Morgan

    There's a petition at the White House website to deport Piers Morgan after he made up lies about guns, was very rude to a pro-gun guest, and attacked the 2nd amendment on a recent show on CNN.

    Here is the petition - https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ogram/zDkJjQ12


    Heres the story - http://news.yahoo.com/pro-gun-rights...130319681.html

  9. #9
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I agree with Dr. Mark except getting our word out and debunking the anti's lies will be hard if not impossible. The media is in the tank for the anti's and cut off any 2A guest from fully explaining their position.

    I was at tumbling with my daughter right after Sandy Hook and got into a short discussion with a local prinicipal about armed teachers etc. She cut off the conversation saying that we will have to agree to disagree and that she didn't want to talk about it anymore. I added right after that, that the charging of the assailant by the unarmed principal was courageous, but I wish she was allowed to have a better weapon to accomplish the task.

    The left will cut off any discussion that they know they will lose. They will spread lies, irrational fears and emotional arguments.

    You would think that this country doesn't already have good examples of guns in schools like Utah or a district in Texas, Michigan allows CHP holders to carry on school property. So there are already many places where there is no blood running in the halls where guns exist but listening to the anti's you would think the opposite.

    I hope that we here in Virginia can ignore the liberal anti screed and get rid of the GFSZA totally in Virginia allowing staff and parents to carry in schools just like we do everywhere else. If we are successful, (its Christmas Eve so I can dream) I can already imagine my first confrontation in the school gym at a basketball game with an anti calling police, hyperventilating or getting in my face about me having a gun. Patience and restraint will be needed on our part to build up the notion that responsible people with guns ARE the good guys. :-)

    Merry Christmas all!
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 12-24-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  10. #10
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    a better petition

    here is a better petition for Piers Morgan -- https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...dment/prfh5zHD

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    To add to that video.. That looked like a Saiga shotgun to me.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I've said this before about Obama. The danger isn't going to come from Congress directly, at least not at first and in fact it's started. The ATF is considering new ammunition regulations. This is the tip of the iceberg I think.

    From Grass Roots of North Carolina Alerts (These people are on top of everything)

    Will consider public comments until Dec 31st...
    TheBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is considering further restrictions for various types of ammunition used in both rifles andhandguns. The new restrictions stem from the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, which among other things restricted “Armor Piercing”ammunition and also set forth exceptions that were allowed. One such restriction banned handgun ammunition which had a composition where the materialswere harder than lead.

    In what appears to be yet another anti-gun initiative by the Obama administration, the BATFE is now consideringreversing previous policy by banning ammunition which was originally designed for rifles but can also be used in certain handguns, such as theThompson Contender or pistol versions of semi-automatic rifles, by claiming that some such ammunition does not meet the exception standards. At issuenow is what changes the BATFE would make in further determining exceptions under the “sporting purposes” exceptions.

    As BATFEdocuments note: “…in developing a narrow sporting purposes test, ammunition in traditional hunting calibers will becomeregulated.” Translated, common rifle ammunition, including steel-core ammunition, would be banned simply because a handgun happensto be chambered for that caliber – as such handguns have been for many decades.

    For more information, please go directly to thewebsite provided by the BATFE:http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/

    There is still time!

    The BATFE has opened the issue for publiccomment until December 31st, 2012. That gives us less than a month to have our voices heard in this issue. Take a moment and write to the BATFE usingthe email address provided below and let them know your concerns as they consider future changes to the “sporting purposes” exceptions tothe Gun Control Act of 1968 which very well may result in further restrictions on commonly used ammunition.
    IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED!
    • Email The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms andExplosives before December 31st.
    • Tell the BATFE that further restrictions are not needed and would be a serious violation of our rights under the SecondAmendment.
    • Support GRNC!: As we move closer to the national and locallegislative sessions, GRNC needs your support to help combat the efforts against your rights as gun owners. Join or renew your membership! http://www.grnc.org/join-grnc/join-grnc-online

    CONTACT INFO

    BATFE email APAComments@atf.gov

    DELIVER THIS MESSAGE
    Suggested Subject: "To the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives:" To Whom It May Concern, It has come to my attention that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is considering furtherrestrictions for various types of ammunition used in both rifles and handguns as they pertain to the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968. I am personallyconcerned that further restrictions on commonly used ammunition would represent a serious breach of the intended scope of the original limitations setforth under the laws created in the Gun Control Act.

    As BATFE documents note: “…in developing a narrow sporting purposestest, ammunition in traditional hunting calibers will become regulated.” Regulated? It would be effectively banned. I will not stand idly bywhile bureaucrats try to ban common rifle ammunition, including steel-core ammunition, simply because a handgun happens to be chambered for thatcaliber – as such handguns have been for many decades.

    Respectfully,
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  13. #13
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I sent my Christmas email to the BATFE as the above suggested. Let's see if I get any visit from them in the near future. :-( I was a bit less politically nice than their suggested email content.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wootizzle View Post
    To add to that video.. That looked like a Saiga shotgun to me.
    It may have been. From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_H...chool_shooting)

    A large quantity of unused ammunition was recovered from the school along with three semi-automatic firearms found with Adam Lanza: a .223-caliber Bushmaster XM-15 rifle,[61] a 10mm Glock 20 SF handgun [5][62] and a 9mm SIG Sauer handgun.[4][63] A shotgun was found in the car Lanza had driven to the school.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wootizzle View Post
    To add to that video.. That looked like a Saiga shotgun to me.
    I agree. That didn't look like an AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    I agree. That didn't look like an AR.
    i'll third that

    the only side charging AR bushmaster makes is ACR. their XM line are all rear charging just like the majority of AR's on the market.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptstoney View Post

    the only side charging AR bushmaster makes is ACR.
    At least one other company makes a side charging AR (AR-15 & AR-10):
    http://www.americanspiritarms.com/ri...r-ar-15-rifle/


    The also have parts for builds: http://www.americanspiritarms.com/ar-15-m4-upper-parts/
    Last edited by Marco; 12-26-2012 at 08:08 PM.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    At least one other company makes a side charging AR (AR-15 & AR-10):
    http://www.americanspiritarms.com/ri...r-ar-15-rifle/


    The also have parts for builds: http://www.americanspiritarms.com/ar-15-m4-upper-parts/
    correct there are a few other companies making a side charging AR. but BUSHMASTER only makes one, every single report is claiming the AR used was a bushmaster.

    the charging lever would also not be on the right side(the pic in the link you posed even places it on the left side) of the gun as it would interfere with the forward assist and it would require you to remove your hand from the grip and trigger to charge the rifle.

  19. #19
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptstoney View Post
    correct there are a few other companies making a side charging AR. but BUSHMASTER only makes one, every single report is claiming the AR used was a bushmaster.

    the charging lever would also not be on the right side(the pic in the link you posed even places it on the left side) of the gun as it would interfere with the forward assist and it would require you to remove your hand from the grip and trigger to charge the rifle.
    two posibilities 1) pic flipped causing charging bar to appear to be on left. or 2) rifle setup for left hand shooter which would place charging bar on left side.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptstoney View Post
    correct there are a few other companies making a side charging AR. but BUSHMASTER only makes one, every single report is claiming the AR used was a bushmaster.
    .
    Quite possible it's a BM lower and another companies upper.....Franken AR....
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Quite possible it's a BM lower and another companies upper.....Franken AR....
    That possible but i doubt lanza's mom assembled her own AR. Everything i have seen says she is new to shooting.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    I see a lot of bad legislation headed down the federal pipe on this. The ATF is going to be used to ban the certain types of ammunition without having to do any legislation on gun control whatsoever. Sure you will still be able to buy the gun, but the ammo will become nonexistent. Isn't the ATF the same agency involved with the Fast and Furious debacle? We still don't have any clue as to what was going on with that.

    Eric Holder: “The Obama administration will consider executive actions and specific proposals for legislation as part of its gun policy response to the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, U.S., Attorney General Eric Holder said on Wednesday,” per Reuters. “Those options will have to include a ‘strong and robust’ Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the chronically under-funded agency that enforces federal gun laws, he said.” Washington Examiner
    Last edited by sparkman2; 12-27-2012 at 05:07 PM.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    I see a lot of bad legislation headed down the federal pipe on this. The ATF is going to be used to ban the certain types of ammunition without having to do any legislation on gun control whatsoever. Sure you will still be able to buy the gun, but the ammo will become nonexistent. Isn't the ATF the same agency involved with the Fast and Furious debacle? We still don't have any clue as to what was going on with that.

    Eric Holder: “The Obama administration will consider executive actions and specific proposals for legislation as part of its gun policy response to the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, U.S., Attorney General Eric Holder said on Wednesday,” per Reuters. “Those options will have to include a ‘strong and robust’ Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the chronically under-funded agency that enforces federal gun laws, he said.” Washington Examiner
    +1
    Last edited by peter nap; 12-27-2012 at 07:00 PM.

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