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Thread: Reality bites.

  1. #1
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Reality bites.

    From time to time, the issue of carrying with an empty chamber vs one in the pipe comes up and gets quite a bit of responses, some of which can be heated. So I thought that this posting might be of interest to those who either carry like this or are thinking about doing so. As always comments are welcome.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    From time to time, the issue of carrying with an empty chamber vs one in the pipe comes up and gets quite a bit of responses, some of which can be heated. So I thought that this posting might be of interest to those who either carry like this or are thinking about doing so. As always comments are welcome.
    Carrying with an empty cylinder is safer... for the other guy if you should find yourself in an armed confrontation. This is especially true here in Utah, where - although we are an OC state - if one does not have a CFP (CCW, or whatever they call a concealed permit in your neck of the woods) they must carry a wheelgun with the first chamber to come under the hammer empty, and the chamber of an auto-loader must be empty. Each instance requires two time-wasting mechanical actions before a round can be fired. A half-second of delay can be the difference between success and failure. There is no "second place winner" in a gunfight. (Keep in mind that a healthy adult male can cover 7yds in 1.5 seconds. If he is armed with a knife, and you can't draw, fire and hit your attacker in <1.5 seconds, that would be considered second place.) Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 12-26-2012 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Punctuation error
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  3. #3
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I have one word for this subject "FREEDOM". Who and why do some people obsess so much how other people exercise freedom, it really is pathetic.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I have one word for this subject "FREEDOM". Who and why do some people obsess so much how other people exercise freedom, it really is pathetic.
    The writer of the article was offering his experience and opinions to those who requested his council. I think that is a fair contribution, don't you? I purposely kept my own opinions to myself with this post, but have expressed them before. I thought the writer's article was timely and informative to those who might be sitting on the fence with this one.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The writer of the article was offering his experience and opinions to those who requested his council. I think that is a fair contribution, don't you? I purposely kept my own opinions to myself with this post, but have expressed them before. I thought the writer's article was timely and informative to those who might be sitting on the fence with this one.
    Actually no I don't. I think people should mind their own business as to how people decide to carry. I think it goes against everything we want to accomplish by putting our nose in the air and try to push others by any means to change their liberty based on opinions. I usually am not so polite in public when these topics come up and tell people to "shove it where the sun don't shine".
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    As a trainer I get asked this all the time.

    I get them the best advice I can.

    I don't belive in carring a defensive pistol on your person with out a round chambered unless you have to according to the law. Or you have a handgun thats unsafe with one in the chamber then you should get rid of it and buy one that is.

    A lot of defensive use is short and fast and can be a one handed affair for may reasons.

    I have people tell me I am afraid of a loaded gun I say more training is in order.

    After getting the information people are free to do as they see fit.

    Personally I don't know any LEOs that carry there duty weapon with a unloaded chamber.

    WalkingWolf did you.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    As a trainer I get asked this all the time.

    I get them the best advice I can.

    I don't belive in carring a defensive pistol on your person with out a round chambered unless you have to according to the law. Or you have a handgun thats unsafe with one in the chamber then you should get rid of it and buy one that is.

    A lot of defensive use is short and fast and can be a one handed affair for may reasons.

    I have people tell me I am afraid of a loaded gun I say more training is in order.

    After getting the information people are free to do as they see fit.

    Personally I don't know any LEOs that carry there duty weapon with a unloaded chamber.

    WalkingWolf did you.
    I is not a matter of what I did or did not do. It is a matter of minding my own business, and you minding yours. If asked is one thing, this bovine scatology of telling others how to do things is pathetic to say the least. We have supposed 2A folks telling people how they should dress, what holster to use and not use, bovine over concealed versus open. It is all carp and embarrassing to the mission of this site. It is each person's responsibility and right to do it as they please.

    Let me make this more clear it is none of your business how I carried then, or now, and if that bugs you then get over it. I wish more people would stand up to this doodoo, but then that is their choice. We should be more concentrated on maintaining our rights instead of being anal and telling others how to exercise them.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    We should be more concentrated on maintaining our rights instead of being anal and telling others how to exercise them.
    Truth.

    I say encourage carry anyway anyone can.

    Before I got my CPL I carried "Israeli" style I stopped though when an LEO I had a non related firearm encounter with told me to stop carrying like that, he didn't seem to concerned about the misdemeanors that may happen if I carried with one in the chamber.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    After getting the information people are free to do as they see fit.


    WalkingWolf didn't you read that line , your a bit touchy.

    In a lots of your other posts you make lot ref to being former LEO or are you just playing a wantabe one.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    After getting the information people are free to do as they see fit.


    WalkingWolf didn't you read that line , your a bit touchy.

    In a lots of your other posts you make lot ref to being former LEO or are you just playing a wantabe one.
    There is nothing touchy about telling a nosey busybody to buzz off.

    I am a retired LEO, so are you just a wannabe open carry advocate?

    Cut the carp and impotent intimidation, it really is pathetic on the internet, how somebody other than you exercises their rights is none of your business. Learn to control the only person you can and you may be much happier.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  11. #11
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    What don't you understand about.

    THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY SEE FIT.

    Open carry, CCW carry, or what ever as long as it is legal.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  12. #12
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    What don't you understand about.

    THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY SEE FIT.

    Open carry, CCW carry, or what ever as long as it is legal.
    I already knew that and so does everybody else. But it appears to bug the scat out of some, including you. So stop whining about it, let them do as they see fit without the finger pointing. We can't control others, so stop trying. What others and you are doing is the very same thing antis do about guns, they obsess over others decisions in life, like it is any of their business, it is not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Truth.

    snip...Before I got my CPL I carried "Israeli" style I stopped though when an LEO I had a non related firearm encounter with told me to stop carrying like that, he didn't seem to concerned about the misdemeanors that may happen if I carried with one in the chamber.
    (i know, just truly know, deep in my soul i am going to regret asking but being a glutton for punishment...)

    SVG what do you mean carried Israeli style?

    wabbit
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    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    (i know, just truly know, deep in my soul i am going to regret asking but being a glutton for punishment...)

    SVG what do you mean carried Israeli style?

    wabbit
    One not in the chamber. That way when I got into a vehicle I could pop the magazine out throw it on my passenger seat and be "legal" by my state law.

    I only learned this phrase from others in my state forum, and could be using it wrong.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Southern Boy, sorry i disagree with one of your comments where you state kept your comments (biases) out!! you only pushed one article saying keep one in the chamber!! i see which way you are sitting on the fence...SO no your post was not a FAIR contribution to the on going discussion but rather a rehash of your bias...

    shall we put it in another context...a brand new thread reader decides this is his very first thread to read...they are expecting a balanced discussion on a subject yet finds your post and article which states 'one should be kept in the chamber' w/o any discussion of the rational for not maintaining one in the chamber. Therefore, you have skewed their perception and no matter what anybody says...he read it here first and assimilated it and preaches it to all who will listen...all from your 'unbiased post'

    bottom line Southern Boy, you have ingratiated your biases and eliminated the 'freedom' the new reader should have experienced in making up their own mind.

    Firearm Instructor...do you now understand the difference...advise was not asked but rather a biased slant was presented w/o a counter.


    wabbit

    ps: Firearm Instructor...when giving advice...do you present the counter or from a perspective...or from the perspective 'what are you dumb' why would you carry a firearm w/o one chambered? i personally suspect your response is the latter...sigh
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-27-2012 at 10:06 AM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  16. #16
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    One not in the chamber. That way when I got into a vehicle I could pop the magazine out throw it on my passenger seat and be "legal" by my state law.

    I only learned this phrase from others in my state forum, and could be using it wrong.
    IMO from what I understand it is more than just carrying condition 3, but a training regiment to bring the arm to bear, while racking a round in a very prompt fashion. I carry condition 2 whether it is my lever action rifle, single shot rifle, DA revolvers or semi auto pistols. The only gun I do not carry condition 2 is my nagant rifle, I carry that condition 3. SA revolvers are carried with hammer between cylinders.

    I have heard all the arguments and my response is always one similar to this "Take your opinion and shove it up the WAZOO!" I never ever tell another person how to carry, unless they work for me. Then they have a simple choice.

    SVG is that still a law in your neck of the woods? I do not agree with laws telling people how to carry either.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-27-2012 at 10:05 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    IMO from what I understand it is more than just carrying condition 3, but a training regiment to bring the arm to bear, while racking a round in a very prompt fashion. I carry condition 2 whether it is my lever action rifle, single shot rifle, DA revolvers or semi auto pistols. The only gun I do not carry condition 2 is my nagant rifle, I carry that condition 3. SA revolvers are carried with hammer between cylinders.

    I have heard all the arguments and my response is always one similar to this "Take your opinion and shove it up the WAZOO!" I never ever tell another person how to carry, unless they work for me. Then they have a simple choice.

    SVG is that still a law in your neck of the woods? I do not agree with laws telling people how to carry either.
    Thanks for the info.

    We can carry fully loaded openly no permits necessary, but must have a permit to carry "loaded" in a vehicle or to conceal a loaded firearm, from my recollection a magazine inserted into your firearm is considered loaded even with nothing in the chamber.

    In my attempt not fall on the wrong side of the law before I got my government permission slip (something I really resisted doing, but caved due to the inconveniences not possessing one created) I too carried without one in the chamber.

    I agree with you though that the berating of others for how they care is tiresome and unnecessary.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Thanks for the info.

    We can carry fully loaded openly no permits necessary, but must have a permit to carry "loaded" in a vehicle or to conceal a loaded firearm, from my recollection a magazine inserted into your firearm is considered loaded even with nothing in the chamber.

    In my attempt not fall on the wrong side of the law before I got my government permission slip (something I really resisted doing, but caved due to the inconveniences not possessing one created) I too carried without one in the chamber.

    I agree with you though that the berating of others for how they care is tiresome and unnecessary.
    Glad we do not have that restriction here. I would have to start looking for a DA 45 ACP revolver and some full moon clips if that ever happens here.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Actually no I don't. I think people should mind their own business as to how people decide to carry. I think it goes against everything we want to accomplish by putting our nose in the air and try to push others by any means to change their liberty based on opinions. I usually am not so polite in public when these topics come up and tell people to "shove it where the sun don't shine".
    Speaking of "freedom", there would be no need for internet forums or any other venue for the exchange of thoughts, ideas, experiences, questions, etc., if all of us had the "freedom" to believe one thing and only that one thing. When a question is posed, it is customary that an answer - although it may be the wrong answer in the eyes of some - be put forth. For example, I believe you have the right to express your desire to stifle people who disagree with you... but at the same time, I have the right to tell you that I perceive such comments as being in contravention of the same "freedom" you exercise and espouse. If there were no differences of opinion, each thread in the forum would be opened with a statement of "fact by acclamation", followed by a limited series of "Amens" from the designated (if uninspired) "amen section", and much snoring throughout the Internet. Actually, I doubt that anybody would even enter a forum more than once when they discovered it was founded upon the principle of "Agree with us, or be labeled a heretic and perish." Just my thoughts on the elephant in the room. Pax...
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Speaking of "freedom", there would be no need for internet forums or any other venue for the exchange of thoughts, ideas, experiences, questions, etc., if all of us had the "freedom" to believe one thing and only that one thing. When a question is posed, it is customary that an answer - although it may be the wrong answer in the eyes of some - be put forth. For example, I believe you have the right to express your desire to stifle people who disagree with you... but at the same time, I have the right to tell you that I perceive such comments as being in contravention of the same "freedom" you exercise and espouse. If there were no differences of opinion, each thread in the forum would be opened with a statement of "fact by acclamation", followed by a limited series of "Amens" from the designated (if uninspired) "amen section", and much snoring throughout the Internet. Actually, I doubt that anybody would even enter a forum more than once when they discovered it was founded upon the principle of "Agree with us, or be labeled a heretic and perish." Just my thoughts on the elephant in the room. Pax...
    Your contention that I am trying to stifle anyone is bovine scatology. In fact I against stifling people and telling them how to do whatever they do. I am for free choice to carry. I did not point to any one specific type of carry as others have, and try to tell them it is unsafe, or whatever CACA. Again it is none of your business how other people carry, or mine. YOU are attempting to stifle MY free speech to get the message out that those who would infringe on others rights in any fashion should "BUGGER OFF!"

    Hope that clears it up for you...
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  21. #21
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    By asking questions,by having a resonable discussion to a question asked,trying to explan one way or the other is infringeing on the rights of someone.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    By asking questions,by having a resonable discussion to a question asked,trying to explan one way or the other is infringeing on the rights of someone.
    Did you ask questions? I must have missed that, I also missed the reasonable discussion, and the question asked. There was no trying to explain why one way is better, it was only saying one way was bad. Same old carpola...

    Ohhh wait I forgot about the insinuation you made towards me. Was that the questions you are talking about?
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-27-2012 at 12:36 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Did you ask questions? I must have missed that, I also missed the reasonable discussion, and the question asked. There was no trying to explain why one way is better, it was only saying one way was bad. Same old carpola...

    Ohhh wait I forgot about the insinuation you made towards me. Was that the questions you are talking about?

    What questions was asked the very frist one heres the quote from the the frist post.


    "From time to time, the issue of carrying with an empty chamber vs one in the pipe comes up and gets quite a bit of responses, some of which can be heated. So I thought that this posting might be of interest to those who either carry like this or are thinking about doing so. As always comments are welcome."

    The question I asked you was did you carry a empty chamber as a working LEO.

    Seems to fit with the frist post.

    I can say I nevered carried with a empty chamber when I was working. Why would I promote something differant where legal and the firearm was safe to use that way.


    You or anyone else can carry any legal way they want nobody here is saying other wise.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    What questions was asked the very frist one heres the quote from the the frist post.


    "From time to time, the issue of carrying with an empty chamber vs one in the pipe comes up and gets quite a bit of responses, some of which can be heated. So I thought that this posting might be of interest to those who either carry like this or are thinking about doing so. As always comments are welcome."

    The question I asked you was did you carry a empty chamber as a working LEO.

    Seems to fit with the frist post.

    I can say I nevered carried with a empty chamber when I was working. Why would I promote something differant where legal and the firearm was safe to use that way.


    You or anyone else can carry any legal way they want nobody here is saying other wise.
    There was no questions, only claims of questions in the articles, there certainly were no questions in the thread. Only comments as to why condition 3 is bad, and those doing it are bad people. My former employment has nothing to do with the thread or the OP and was a childish ignorant stupid asinine attempt at insulting. You should grow up, I believe it is unsafe for immature adults to carry.

    Let me remind of the title to the thread "Reality bites" pretty much sets the tone and direction of any debate, and the bias nature of both the OP and first posters.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-27-2012 at 01:25 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    After getting the information people are free to do as they see fit.


    WalkingWolf didn't you read that line , your a bit touchy.

    In a lots of your other posts you make lot ref to being former LEO or are you just playing a wantabe one.
    Yeah, he does doesn't he.

    The context of my post was for those who ask questions, seek opinions, and try to gain some insight, knowledge, and the lessons of experience from others, and present their requests on websites where they feel they can receive what they seek. The man in the article I presented has his opinion and he was giving it because it would come up frequently in the courses he teaches. I posted the link for those who wish to discuss this topic which appears from time to time on these forums. Some folks honestly do want to hear what others have to say about things and there is nothing wrong with that. It is my belief we are all members of this site to share our experiences, our knowledge, and to learn from one another. In the process, we are fortunate to develop friendships along the way.

    My personal feeling about topic this is similar to WalkingWolf's view. I know what I will or won't do, but I will not try to impose my views on others. I will offer my opinions when asked and the reasons I have them, but the bottom line is as he stated, though I may state it a little differently. How one carries is up to them and them alone. They may find out whether or not they took the right decision if and when the time comes they ever have to draw upon their sidearm. And even then, they will only know if they were right for that instant case. Yet it IS up to them to do as they see fit.

    Hope this helps clear up any confusion.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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