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Thread: Out of State Transfer Question

  1. #1
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    Out of State Transfer Question

    I'm trying to work out a deal with my uncle to buy a handgun from him. He's a resident of Maryland, and I'm in Kentucky.

    I know it's not legal for use to do a face to face transfer of it.

    I've bought plenty of handguns from out of state, and am familiar with the usual FFL-to-FFL shipping(technically I realize it doesn't have to be FFL to FFL, but the FFL I use won't accept shipments from non-FFLs).

    My uncle is in town every other month or so, and I'm wondering if, rather than dealing with shipping it's legal/possible for him to bring the gun into an FFL here in KY(rather than shipping to them) and have them transfer it to me.

    Does that sound possible, or does he need to look for an FFL at home that will agree to ship it to my FFL?

    Thanks

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I'm trying to work out a deal with my uncle to buy a handgun from him. He's a resident of Maryland, and I'm in Kentucky.

    I know it's not legal for use to do a face to face transfer of it.

    I've bought plenty of handguns from out of state, and am familiar with the usual FFL-to-FFL shipping(technically I realize it doesn't have to be FFL to FFL, but the FFL I use won't accept shipments from non-FFLs).

    My uncle is in town every other month or so, and I'm wondering if, rather than dealing with shipping it's legal/possible for him to bring the gun into an FFL here in KY(rather than shipping to them) and have them transfer it to me.

    Does that sound possible, or does he need to look for an FFL at home that will agree to ship it to my FFL?

    Thanks
    IANAL, but I don't believe the interstate transportation of a firearm is illegal, nor is the transfer of a firearm from one individual to another illegal. If your uncle is not prohibited by law to possess a handgun, and he complies with the state laws for transportation of a firearm (generally, unloaded and locked in the trunk of a car will satisfy most states, but some states do require it to be locked in a case as well) between his home and yours, and you are not prohibited by law from owning a firearm, I don't see any problem at all for your making the deal. You might inquire of the STATE forum for MD and KY for more specifc guidance. Hope this helps some. Pax,,,
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    I realize that private transfers are not generally illegal, but I have always been under the impression that both the seller and the buyer must be residents of the same state. I know that there are some restrictions in Maryland on private transfers, although there are none in KY.

    Hence my question, as I have been under the impression that it's very, very illegal(i.e. a felony) to do a private transfer since we are residents of different states.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I realize that private transfers are not generally illegal, but I have always been under the impression that both the seller and the buyer must be residents of the same state. I know that there are some restrictions in Maryland on private transfers, although there are none in KY.

    Hence my question, as I have been under the impression that it's very, very illegal(i.e. a felony) to do a private transfer since we are residents of different states.
    Straight from "the horses mouth"... or the other end, depending upon how one views the ATF:
    Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

    And:
    Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
    A person may only acquire a firearm within the personís own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licenseeís premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
    According to this one (as I read it, anyway), if you go to your uncle's home state you should be able to legally purchase the pistol from him... IF the sale is otherwise in compliance with MD state law (and applicable federal laws). ATF "clarifications" are so bifurcated that being absolutely certain one is in compliance is a real challenge. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    My uncle is in town every other month or so, and I'm wondering if, rather than dealing with shipping it's legal/possible for him to bring the gun into an FFL here in KY(rather than shipping to them) and have them transfer it to me.

    Does that sound possible, or does he need to look for an FFL at home that will agree to ship it to my FFL?

    Thanks
    He can bring it down to the FFL in your state and sell it to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    According to this one (as I read it, anyway), if you go to your uncle's home state you should be able to legally purchase the pistol from him... IF the sale is otherwise in compliance with MD state law (and applicable federal laws). ATF "clarifications" are so bifurcated that being absolutely certain one is in compliance is a real challenge. Pax...
    If he went to the Uncle in MD then the Uncle's FFL would still have to ship it down to the KY FFL.
    States donít have rights. People do.

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    You Can Be Hung By a Loophole...

    But, here's a possibility that shouldn't get you more than 5-10 in the federal pen. Think like the left does! Use the BATFE's own words against them by forcing them to live up to the "letter of the law". Let me restate this:
    A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.
    Now let us call the original intent being one of, "to loan or rent" for whatever temporary purpose... which then places the gun itself in KY. Now the question becomes one of, "How long or short is temporary?" According to English language dictionaries, "temporary" generally means, "Lasting, used, serving, or enjoyed for a limited time." We now find ourselves knee-deep in the quagmire of semantics. How long or short is limited? (No, no, no... let's not even go there!) Rather than get bogged down, we should be able to use the time periods for which Presidents and Senators are elected, and for which citizens enlist in the military, as they are - initially - all temporary lengths of service to the people - 4 YEARS (with - depending upon the fit - extensions of equal length available)! Done deal.

    I offer this as a possibility only half in jest. There is a remote chance that such an arrangement could be both workable and legal, but - again - IANAL! Don't simply take my word for it as being "gpspel", but you might want to explore the idea a bit further with someone who is qualified to read and interpret the law. However, do keep in mind that the commonly accepted English language meanings of words, are frequently overridden by the courts. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 12-27-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    [snip]
    Your suggestions/interpretations, if followed, could subject the OP and the Uncle to Prison.

    The handgun must go through an FFL in Kentucky for transfer to the OP (in accordance with Federal and Kentucky law.)

    The Uncle is free to ship it to the FFL or hand deliver it.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 12-27-2012 at 01:55 PM.

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    Thanks for the responses, and for answering my question that he can bring the gun in person to an FFL here in the state in person(to save the trouble of shipping).

    As much of a disaster as federal firearms laws are(and federal laws in general) I want to do everything I can to operate within them and would prefer to do things clearly in the right rather than have to depend on a clever lawyer to stay out of jail.

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    The gun in question is one that my uncle has owned for years and has simply decided that he no longer wants it. Come to think of it, I think he has owned it longer than I've been alive(it's an S&W revolver from the late '70s) so there's no possible way that he could be accused of making a straw purchase for me.

  10. #10
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    I think it would be easiest for him to loan you the firearm. As long as he maintains ownership of the firearm and allows you an extended temporary use of it. Then maybe he wouldn't even have to be there for the transfer, if you decide down the road to take ownership of the firearm.

    If that is not an option, he could probably get an FFL in MD to mail the firearm to an FFL down here to do the transfer. The problem though is that both would like to charge a fee.

    The next option would be to find a nice FFL holder down here to do it. Honest FFL holders would not "transfer" a firearm between two Kentucky residents though (because they don't actually do anything in those cases). You'll have to explain to them that he is an out of state resident and that you need them to complete the transfer to stay legal.

    I am willing to bet that Borders in Cannonsburg (Ashland), KY would do it. They usually try to help anyone with things like these. I don't know how close you are. If this is an option, call them before you go to see if they would and what they would charge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    All of what has been said here is true, but when your uncle buys the gun in MD he has to swear on form 4473 that he is buying it for himself. If he buys it with the intent of reselling it to you, he becomes a "straw purchaser" and the sale is illegal. If you want "to do things clearly in the right" this is not an option for you.
    Did you read the OP? I did. Did not sound like anything near a straw purchase...you post is totally irrelivent to the OP>

  12. #12
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    The gun in question is one that my uncle has owned for years and has simply decided that he no longer wants it. Come to think of it, I think he has owned it longer than I've been alive(it's an S&W revolver from the late '70s) so there's no possible way that he could be accused of making a straw purchase for me.
    Have your uncle bring it with him to KY...he can even OC it there is he wishes...before you both go down to a FFL that will transfer the weapon to you. If your FFL will not accept a shipped pistol except from another FFL, you might check if he will accept from and individual...if not, find an FFL that will, (your FFL will probably accept from your uncle in person, even if he won't via shipping.)

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