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Thread: Open Carry age conflict

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    Open Carry age conflict

    Hello, Im new to the site, but I have been reading alot on here before I registered. I am 23 years old and I open carry quite a bit and all the pistols I carry are registered to my fathers name not mine. I have yet too buy one. However, I have a brother who is 20 and would like too open carry as well, but I dont want him getting into some serious trouble over it because of his age. I know the state laws says that you must be 18 or older to oppen carry a pistol, but how can that be since the federal law say you must be 21 or older to purchase a handgun or ammo? I know there are several other threads on here discussing the legal carrying age in NC, but no one ever cleared this up or explained how this legal. state vs. federal law?

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    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Open Carry age conflict

    Just because you cannot buy doesn't mean it can't be gifted to you. Especially by family members. I carried my beretta in CA for 2 years as an armed guard from 18 on and it was in my aunts name. Simple.

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    jashua, welcome to the forum...lets see as you mentioned this subject has been discussed quite a lot on the NC thread. a point to remember do not confuse federal law with NC statutes. remember i am not an attorney...

    18 US 9xx code covers most of the 'shall nots' imposed by the Feds (ATF) while NC firearm statutes are covered under 14-xxx series with statutes scattered elsewhere in the law.

    http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/statutes/statutes.asp is an excellent site for you to use w/its search function to check out the NC statutes.

    now to your query...
    1. 18 USC imposes strict age limits on the purchase of a handgun and handgun ammo to those over 21 from a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL).
    2. as you are probably aware, 14-402 mandates you must have a sheriff's issued Pistol Purchase Permit for anybody to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive a firearm who meets the criteria outlined in para NC 14-404 (c).

    Bottom line, you may not purchase a handgun from a FFL due to federal imposed sanctions but NC statutes state you may receive one from your caregiver IF you have a PPP to give to your caregiver.

    as has been reflected on here many times and i believe the consensus was an individual < 21 should carry the issued ppp w/you in case you are stopped to show you have followed state statute.

    does that clear up, just a little, the confusion factor?

    wabbit

    ps: a further suggestion...seek out an NRA basic pistol course which enhance your knowledge, skill and assist in your attitude about safe gun handling...

    pps: you also need to assure you know the where you can or cannot carry provisions of NC statutes...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-27-2012 at 04:45 PM.
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    sorry WABBIT you confused me a little with your post.

    the main point is you can purchase a handgun at 18, just not from a FLD. private sales, gift, inheritance, all these are allowed (allowed for a right, huh).

    although like he said we have that stupid, bigoted, out of date law here that says you must get a PPP to buy a handgun. Now in NC, there is no law against an 18 year old getting a PPP. some of the counties try to push that there is, don't let them, if they do refuse to give you a PPP at 18, let us know and we will make a big issue out of it
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jashua View Post
    I am 23 years old and I open carry quite a bit and all the pistols I carry are registered to my fathers name not mine.
    When you say registered what do you mean? There is no registration of firearms in North Carolina.
    "I'm kinda high (or maybe low) profile around here, to hate on me is just sour grapes." - NCHeel

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    My fathers name was on the pistol permits at the time of the purshase is what I ment by registered (sorry). Im still trying to figure out how this all works. They make all of this more complcated than it should be, but thats the government for you. So my brother or I could get a pistol permit from the sheriffs office to recive theses pistols as a gift? Is this necessary? I carry a glock 19 pretty often (purchased by my father), never had any issues with a LEO. What Im most confused about it the legality of possesion of a hangun under the age of 21. I understand what the rabbit was saying about the differences between federal law and state statues. Federal law says you must be 21 to purchase from a ffd and the state says you must be 18 to posess? So in other words, once the pistol is out of the hands of a ffd there are no regulations on whos has pssesion of it as long as they are not a minor? And the pistols are not registered to any specific persons name, they are registered for theft and crime records? Also I do alot of deer hunting with pistols, and I was infromed once by a wildlife officer (who made almost no sense, and was very hard to understand) that you must be 21 to hunt with a pistol in NC? Nowhere in the reg book does it say that and if such it true then wouldnt conflict with these OC laws?

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    And on the permit applications is asks if the applicant is 21 or older?

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    Devin, the law actually does not state that the seller must retain the pistol permit of the buyer. In fact, the law simply says the buyer must have obtained one, and that is it. It does not say what has to be done with it, other than the buyer must have one in order to purchase a handgun.

    At Novembers Gun-Show, I had an FFL dealer and a few private dealers point this out to me as I went to purchase my handgun/s.

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    It says in section 14-415.12 of the state statues that the applicant must be 21 years of age or older to recieve a permit
    Last edited by jashua; 12-28-2012 at 11:36 AM.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jashua View Post
    It says in section 14-415.12 of the state statues that the applicant must be 21 years of age or older to recieve a permit
    I'm on my phone and cannot check right now, but doesn't 14-415 deal specifically with the concealed carry permit? I think you may be confusing permits here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin Hutchison View Post
    When you take possession of the handgun you must present the Permit to the seller, who is required to retain it forever.*
    Care to cite that statement?
    "I'm kinda high (or maybe low) profile around here, to hate on me is just sour grapes." - NCHeel

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    IAW 2011 NC Attorney General guidelines, quote: It is the opinion of the United States Department of Justice that a valid North Carolina Concealed Handgun Permit may be used as an alternative to a NICS check for the purchase of firearms. Again, multiple long guns may be purchased if they are purchased in a single transaction.

    If a transfer is made of a firearm by a licensed dealer to a person pursuant to the permit alternative, the purchaser must first complete and sign the BATF Form 4473. As usual, the dealer will verify the identity of the purchaser by photo identification. The permit must be valid and issued within the preceding five (5) years. 27 CFR 478.102(d)(I)(ii) If a pistol purchase permit is used, the dealer will retain the original permit for the transaction. unquote (http://www.ncsheriffs.org/documents/...ws-rev2011.pdf)

    when a buyer uses a valid CHP, the FFL is required to copy and retain attached to the AFT Form 4473!!

    So NC-tarheel, I am sure Devin was referring to purchase from an FFL who are required to retain the PPP and the ATF Form 4473 'forever'!! However, there is no statute requirement for those NC citizen(s) who sell a firearm privately to keep the buyer's PPP. however, IMHO, in our current environment I am afraid i would recommend a bill of sale attached to the buyer's PPP.



    wabbit

    ps: yes you're correct 41-415.12 does reflect criteria for NC's CHP.

    pps: xtensity, those FFLs who fail to retain the buyer's PPP will surely enjoy the conversation w/the ATF examiner during their no notice inspections or during their renewal process.
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-28-2012 at 02:00 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Jashua, to clarify your other post...

    Understand the moment you wish to take your handgun hunting etc...whole new world with their own wildlife, etc., legal criteria not covered by NC firearm statutes or ATF code.

    You are correct w/your initial concept concerning once the firearm, hand or long gun, that once it is out of the hands of the FFL and the buyer has left the store it is anybody's guess who it belongs to. EXCEPT in DURHAM which apparently has an ordinance with requires firearm registration with the local sheriff.

    wabbit
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    So NC-tarheel, I am sure Devin was referring to purchase from an FFL who are required to retain the PPP and the ATF Form 4473 'forever'!!
    My definition of forever is not 20 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATF
    Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?

    FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.

    [27 CFR 478.129(b)]
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brad...wn-nics-denial
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    nc-heel why oh why do you insist on mis-quoting statues or fail to check what a freq asked question section references to make sure of the context.

    as you can imagine at this point, you should realize 27 cfr 478.129(b) does not say what you quoted.

    quote ...at least 20 years... unquote i believe is the exact time criteria referenced in the cfr's paragraph...a minimum length of time...not an absolute period of time!!

    if business goes completely out of business the records are xported to atf for retention...prob to warehouse thirteen!!!

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-28-2012 at 11:42 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jashua View Post
    It says in section 14-415.12 of the state statues that the applicant must be 21 years of age or older to recieve a permit
    JASHUA that is the age of a CHP not a PPP.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    nc-heel why oh why do you insist on mis-quoting statues or fail to check what a freq asked question section references to make sure of the context.

    as you can imagine at this point, you should realize 27 cfr 478.129(b) does not say what you quoted.

    quote ...at least 20 years... unquote i believe is the exact time criteria referenced in the cfr's paragraph...a minimum length of time...not an absolute period of time!!

    if business goes completely out of business the records are xported to atf for retention...prob to warehouse thirteen!!!

    wabbit
    I have not misquoted anything. I have directly quoted the ATF (the governing firearm authority in the U.S.) I quoted the ATF's frequently asked questions and answers and the ATF's official government web site referenced the cfr. Since you apparently know more than them you should contact them and correct them.

    (b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees
    shall retain each Form 4473 and
    Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less
    than 20 years after the date of sale or
    disposition.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-200...sec478-129.pdf

    It says "not less", care to cite the source that you quote as saying "at least"? My definition of Quote...FOREVER...Unquote is not for a period of not less than 20 years.

    The Gun Control act of 1968 requires importers to record the type, model, caliber or gauge, manufacturer, country of manufacture, and the serial number of each firearm imported or otherwise acquired, and the date such importation or other acquisition was made. The records of importation or other acquisition must be retained by the importer on the licensed premises permanently. I would consider permanently to mean forever.

    but....

    From the office of the Director, U.S. Department of Justice BATFE 2011

    ...Under 27 CFR 478.129(d), the importerís records of the sale or other disposition of firearms to licensees must be retained by the importer for 20 years....

    ...In addition, under 27 CFR 478.122(d) licensed importers must maintain separate records of the sales or other dispositions of firearms made to nonlicensees. These records must be maintained in the form and manner prescribed by regulations at 27 CFR 478.124, 478.125(e), and 478.125(i), with regard to firearms transaction records and records of firearms disposition. Under 27 CFR 478.129(d), the importerís records of the sale or other disposition of firearms to nonlicensees must be retained for 20 years....

    http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2011-1.pdf

    I don't think I need to continue citing any more instances where they say for 20 years. You have yet to cite where they say forever as you stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    ...I am sure Devin was referring to purchase from an FFL who are required to retain the PPP and the ATF Form 4473 'forever'!...

    As many times as the Office of the Director references "for 20 years" for both licenses (FFL's) and "nonlicensees" (the public) I would consider the term "for a period of not less than 20 years" a long winded way of saying "for 20 years". It seems the Office of the Director does. If anyone would be an expert on ATF laws I think the Office of the Director of the BATFE would be.
    "I'm kinda high (or maybe low) profile around here, to hate on me is just sour grapes." - NCHeel

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    I'm sorry NC-Heel what did your quote in post 15 state?

    i know FAQs normally are summations...

    the rest of your ramblings are citing information importers i so hope you understand the differences between licensees who each have their own separate record keeping responsibilities, no apparently not...

    you do realize ATF's publication 5300.4, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 trumps the FAQ BS, right?

    I am sure you truly believe the director's letters would win in court but they are not binding as law as outlined in 18 USC 923(g)X...

    so...not less than 20 years works for me as outlined in 478.128(b)...

    wabbit

    ps sorry JASHUA for the confusion you are receiving...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-30-2012 at 12:55 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    I'm sorry NC-Heel what did your quote in post 15 state?

    i know FAQs normally are summations...

    the rest of your ramblings are citing information importers i so hope you understand the differences between licensees who each have their own separate record keeping responsibilities, no apparently not...

    you do realize ATF's publication 5300.4, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 trumps the FAQ BS, right?

    I am sure you truly believe the director's letters would win in court but they are not binding as law as outlined in 18 USC 923(g)X...

    so...not less than 20 years works for me as outlined in 478.128(b)...

    wabbit

    ps sorry JASHUA for the confusion you are receiving...
    Can you cite that for me, I will not take your word for it.

    I thought it was "'at least 20 years" as you stated or were you spewing incorrect information on here? So in your opinion "not less than 20 years" is the same as "forever" as you stated that is how long the must keep the paperwork? Can you cite

    not less than 20 years = forever?
    Last edited by NC-Heel; 12-30-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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    "Nuts" followed by "You can go straight to Hell." Jake from Jericho

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    ...I am sure Devin was referring to purchase from an FFL who are required to retain the PPP and the ATF Form 4473 'forever'!...
    Still waiting for the cite of this statement you made concerning FFl's required to retain form 4473 forever. Are you just pretending you never said that since you can't cite it
    Last edited by NC-Heel; 12-30-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    NC-heel i provided the NC Attorney General's cite earlier from http://www.ncsheriffs.org/documents/...ws-rev2011.pdf as explained in post 13.

    i'm sorry you have trouble understanding the concept the PPP is retained by the FFL and the FFL can copy the CHP and attach it to or write the info on the 4473 and as outlined in referenced CFR retain the form for 'at least 20 years' which is forever IMHO.

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-30-2012 at 11:13 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Regular Member Wulf.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jashua View Post
    Hello, Im new to the site, but I have been reading alot on here before I registered. I am 23 years old and I open carry quite a bit and all the pistols I carry are registered to my fathers name not mine. I have yet too buy one. However, I have a brother who is 20 and would like too open carry as well, but I dont want him getting into some serious trouble over it because of his age. I know the state laws says that you must be 18 or older to oppen carry a pistol, but how can that be since the federal law say you must be 21 or older to purchase a handgun or ammo? I know there are several other threads on here discussing the legal carrying age in NC, but no one ever cleared this up or explained how this legal. state vs. federal law?
    Just for some helpful advice on this question of age; I am 20 years old, and have no problem OC"ing my RIA 1911. Federal Law only necessitates age 21 to purchase from a FFL DEALER.
    If you still have questions on the age, since your brother is 20, I actually did go down to the Guilford County Sheriffs office and get a PPP when i was 19. Granted, I had to argue with a Sheriffs deputy who swore that I could not be issued a permit because of my age, polite persistance and not backing down finally led to them making a call to another office, and being told that they in fact DID have to process my application, despite me being 19. A week later I happily received my PPP. Now, keep in mind that the PPP has absolutely NOTHING to do with purchasing a handgun at this point in time, I merely carry a copy with me in the even that I should be stopped and questioned by a LEO. It does state that the Sheriff has "Received no information to indicate that it would be a violation of State or Federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive, or possess a handgun.". At the bottom, an addendum has been added that is not on most PPPs. It states, highlighted, "Applicant is under 21. This permit is valid for private transfer only. NOT VALID FOR USE WITH FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS (18 USC 922)." This can be useful if stopped, but in no capacity is it your golden ticket out.
    Also, NC is not a register state, so regardless of who purchased the handgun initially, if it is gifted, there is no registration required. (Unless you live in a city that requires it, Durham I think).

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