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AR 15 Band waggon

donsadlerjr

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Edmond, OK
Well I have a buddy that has a Quad rail that he is going to sale me for 40.00 that should work just a quick change and should be 100% what I am looking for I feel. Anyone know any other places in OKC you can order like this?
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
As long as the parts (upper & lower) are mil-spec you should be able to buy them from different manufacturers without any fitting problems. I would strongly suggest you get the upper chambered for 5.56, since that will handle the plentiful .223Rem ammo, but the .223 chamber is almost guaranteed to fail prematurely when fed a consistent diet of 5.56x45 ammo. WalMart also sells the SIG 5.56 (at least they do locally). And, although I have no personal experience with one, don't offhandedly discount Mossberg's relatively recent AR offering, which has gotten excellent reviews. My personal AR is a mismatched upper/lower combo, and works fine. Pax...
 
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armaborealis

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
56
Location
Alaska
You have picked the worst time ever to get into the AR game.

I'd go for a 1:7 twist barrel to allow for heavier ammo usage. Why free float? With a 16" bbl you're not building a designated marksman rifle. Unless you use a tight sling or need to shave a 0.25 MOA off of the groups free float is a waste of money and weight.

I'd suggest heading on over to AR15.com. They are gurus on all the specs for an M4gery.

A basic Palmetto State Armory M4gery was running around $700 pre-crisis. Think about that before you panic buy and decide how much it is worth to you...
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
I'd go for a 1:7 twist barrel to allow for heavier ammo usage. Why free float? With a 16" bbl you're not building a designated marksman rifle.

That was what I was thinking. Actually free floating a 16'' barrel on an AR will provide little (if any) noticeable advantages.

Then you want two stage trigger, this is primarily used as a competition trigger for a reason.

If you want a precision gun then get/build a precision gun, if you want a "serviceable" (whatever serviceable is to you) then get/build one that fits that.

Don't ever try to get a "do all gun", because then it won't do anything well.

The M&P line is a good line of guns. Not sure why you're not a M&P fan? Because you have never used one? It will compare favorably to any other similar gun from any manufacturer. You'll get most of the gun of more expensive manufacturers with less of a price tag.
 

MainelyGlock

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
615
Location
Portland, ME
As long as the parts (upper & lower) are mil-spec you should be able to buy them from different manufacturers without any fitting problems. I would strongly suggest you get the upper chambered for 5.56, since that will handle the plentiful .223Rem ammo, but the .223 chamber is almost guaranteed to fail prematurely when fed a consistent diet of 5.56x45 ammo. WalMart also sells the SIG 5.56 (at least they do locally). And, although I have no personal experience with one, don't offhandedly discount Mossberg's relatively recent AR offering, which has gotten excellent reviews. My personal AR is a mismatched upper/lower combo, and works fine. Pax...

If you ever have the chance to buy or shoot the 552 or 556, definitely do! My buddy has the latter, and the trigger is phenomenal. Blows my stock Windham one out of the water.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
That was what I was thinking. Actually free floating a 16'' barrel on an AR will provide little (if any) noticeable advantages.

Then you want two stage trigger, this is primarily used as a competition trigger for a reason.

If you want a precision gun then get/build a precision gun, if you want a "serviceable" (whatever serviceable is to you) then get/build one that fits that.

Don't ever try to get a "do all gun", because then it won't do anything well.

The M&P line is a good line of guns. Not sure why you're not a M&P fan? Because you have never used one? It will compare favorably to any other similar gun from any manufacturer. You'll get most of the gun of more expensive manufacturers with less of a price tag.

Though a bullpup can get you far closer to the "do all" build than other setups. Now if only more companies would work on developing them to work through some of the perceived issues.
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
Though a bullpup can get you far closer to the "do all" build than other setups. Now if only more companies would work on developing them to work through some of the perceived issues.

Have you ever had a bullpup with a good trigger on it? I am far (far) from an expert on pullpups but I have never found one with a nice trigger. Also, they are more awkward to load. Nothing would be able to change that.

Bullpup shotguns are also more susceptible to short stroking the action.

You can fix the trigger, but I think the other two issues rule out the bullpup for me.
 

Keylock

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
196
Location
OKC
Carried an M16 for four years in USAF (security specialist). Haven't touched one since and don't plan on it.

But after sleeping in a Holiday Inn last week, I decided to buy a new Mossberg MVP 5.56 bolt action. Uses AR mags. Waiting for the scope I order this past weekend to arrive, along with reloading dies and such.
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Carried an M16 for four years in USAF (security specialist). Haven't touched one since and don't plan on it.

But after sleeping in a Holiday Inn last week, I decided to buy a new Mossberg MVP 5.56 bolt action. Uses AR mags. Waiting for the scope I order this past weekend to arrive, along with reloading dies and such.

I had no problems with my M16, and that was before the forward assist was added. But then I kept so clean you could eat off of it. It is not always possible to keep a gun that clean. I prefer a rifle with a action that has a reputation for working in any conditions, I prefer a round that was designed to take down a horse.
 

Keylock

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
196
Location
OKC
I had no problems with my M16, and that was before the forward assist was added. But then I kept so clean you could eat off of it. It is not always possible to keep a gun that clean. I prefer a rifle with a action that has a reputation for working in any conditions, I prefer a round that was designed to take down a horse.

Mine was squeaky clean as well, and like yours, the one I had lacked the forward assist. It functioned flawlessly when I was required to fire it. I just got so damn sick of carrying it day after day that I never had a desire to own a variant of it after leaving the service. I love my lever actions and hope to enjoy this bolt.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,431
Location
northern wis
Carried an M16 for four years in USAF (security specialist). Haven't touched one since and don't plan on it.

But after sleeping in a Holiday Inn last week, I decided to buy a new Mossberg MVP 5.56 bolt action. Uses AR mags. Waiting for the scope I order this past weekend to arrive, along with reloading dies and such.

You might want to think about the remington pump that uses M16/AR mags.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Have you ever had a bullpup with a good trigger on it? I am far (far) from an expert on pullpups but I have never found one with a nice trigger. Also, they are more awkward to load. Nothing would be able to change that.

Bullpup shotguns are also more susceptible to short stroking the action.

You can fix the trigger, but I think the other two issues rule out the bullpup for me.

Personally I don't mind the trigger on my AUG and as such I haven't bought the parts to clean it up (I'm lazy), but there's multiple things out there to help lighten the trigger pull for it. So that tells me it is completely possible to fix up the trigger and it's simply a manufacturers' issue and not an insurmountable problem with the general bullpup design (the trigger mods I've seen for the AUG drop it down to ~5lb).

As far as being awkward to reload, well pretty much any gun is going to be awkard to reload when compared to the AR design. That's one of the big things about the AR platform. Though one can always train to help make it not as awkward. And some people might even like the fact that the mags don't just free-fall out of the mag well for various reasons.

For bullpup shotguns, the only one I even really know about is the KelTec one which is a pump. Though the fact that shotguns may or may not have this problem shouldn't affect one's opinion when looking for a rifle or at non-semi bullpup shotguns.

The main thing about the bullpup design is that it gives you a shorter overall gun while retaining a longer barrel and how it changes up weight/recoil distribution. The shorter design but longer barrel make it better when one needs/wants to be able to switch between CQC and further ranges. It can also be nice for a hunter as they need less space to maneuver their gun (not a big deal if you have a wide-open area, but could be helpful if hunting with a friend/family in the same blind or depending on the foilage of your hunting spot). And by moving the bolt and mag further back the weight/recoil is closer to one's body. This helps lower fatigue over extended periods of time and helps one to control the recoil better for follow-up shots.

Not that there aren't potential issues with the bullpup. The reloading can be awkward and require extra training compared to an AR (but again, pretty much any gun is going to be a bit awkward to reload when compared to the ease of the AR-style). It's not really a design that would do well for bayonet use (though I would say the new collapsible-stock AR design isn't that well suited for it either). The gun is more complicated which can make it harder to work on and more expensive in general. Historically they don't have the best of trigger-pulls (something that can be fixed but might require more of an aftermarket solution). And historically they haven't been very friendly when one needs to switch between left/right hand use in the field (though I am seeing more and more truely ambidextrious designs coming out so this is going to now depend more on the specific gun and has less to do with the actual bullpup design).

Personally the advantage of the shorter length/longer barrel and the redistributed weight/recoil outweigh the reload speed and relative simplicity of the AR. To each their own, but I just don't want to see people simply going with the AR-style out of ignorance/tradition without truely understanding some of the pros/cons of the bullpup; especially with some of the advances in design lately in regards to the trigger and ambidextrious use.

EDIT: Oh and I would say part of the problem of the bullpup vs AR is that the AR is basically "America's Rifle" while the bullpup simply isn't. This has led to most Americans simply getting what they know (which leads to more development money for the AR to fix issues along with a bigger reputation), while bullpups are rather obscure to most people and simply haven't had the R&D funds poured into it to fix some of the issues until recently (hence the trigger and ambidextrious issues that have often been associated with bullpups).
 
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Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
For bullpup shotguns, the only one I even really know about is the KelTec one which is a pump. Though the fact that shotguns may or may not have this problem shouldn't affect one's opinion when looking for a rifle or at non-semi bullpup shotguns.
To the best of my recollection, High Standard was the first commercial producer of the bullpup design shotgun. In 1966, using its Flite King as the basis for the modification, High Standard began manufacturing a semi-automatic, 12ga bullpup shotgun that included such features as a swiveling buttplate, along with an integral carry handle and an built-in Kel-Lite flashlight. The Hi-Standard Model 10A was originally designed to be the ultimate entry shotgun for the newly created SWAT teams being formed in PDs nationwide. In the mid-to-late ’80s Mossberg produced a short-lived 12ga Bullpup variant of their ever-popular Model 500 pump. As far as I know, Aknazer, you are correct in that Kel-Tec is the only American manufacturer producing a bullpup-style shotgun today. :D Pax...
 
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jammer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
85
Location
, ,
So I know this is not open carry or side arm talk. But I figured I would ask my fellow friends on here.
I am thinking about jumping on the ar-15 band wagon.
Been do some research a bit and I like what Rock river and yankee hill are doing. but dang they want $$$$$ for it
Kind of new to anything that is not black powder or shotgun
Wanted to see what you all say about my list below and get recommends and some Manufactures I should check out.
Just looking for input

My List so far
16in Chromed lined barrel 1:9 twist
6 position stock
Quad rails float barrel
Flip up sights
Ergo rubber grip
Radical muzzle break
Mounts for sling
Room for Eco tech sight later
Shoots 5.56 and .223 ammo
4 to 6 30round mags
2 stage trigger

Buy a Colt SP1 PREBAN and be done with it.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
To the best of my recollection, High Standard was the first commercial innovator of the bullpup design shotgun. In 1966, using its Flite King as the basis for the modification, High Standard began manufacturing a semi-automatic, 12ga bullpup shotgun that included such features as a swiveling buttplate, along with an integral carry handle and an built-in Kel-Lite flashlight. The Hi-Standard Model 10A was originally designed to be the ultimate entry shotgun for the newly created SWAT teams being formed in PDs nationwide. In the mid-to-late ’80s Mossberg produced a short-lived 12ga Bullpup variant of their ever-popular Model 500 pump. As far as I know, Aknazer, you are correct in that Kel-Tec is the only American manufacturer producing a bullpup-style shotgun today. :D Pax...

Ahh, then ya that would not be enough for me to believe that short-stroking is an inherent issue with bullpup shotguns as opposed to a design issue with a specific gun.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,241
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
Have you considered just building your own? The weapon is basically components that you can pick and choose. If really worried about matching uppers and lowers, it's just metal, bed it. If you really want to get down and dirty, build your own lower. Not that hard and you probably already have the tools. Google is your friend.
 

donsadlerjr

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Edmond, OK
Have you considered just building your own? The weapon is basically components that you can pick and choose. If really worried about matching uppers and lowers, it's just metal, bed it. If you really want to get down and dirty, build your own lower. Not that hard and you probably already have the tools. Google is your friend.

I just ordered 2 lowers from coffered arms.com so I am building my own decided they are on 3 weeks on order to you. So this is going to be nice.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...but the .223 chamber is almost guaranteed to fail prematurely when fed a consistent diet of 5.56x45 ammo...

Cite, please.

That's a bold statement.

And wrong for just about every civilian, and 99% of soldiers.
 
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