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Thread: Can I purchase a handgun in Arizona and resell to a Calif resident?

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    Can I purchase a handgun in Arizona and resell to a Calif resident?

    A California friend is searching for a particular handgun and while browsing the www.armslist.com/ website he found one in AZ. He and I am wondering if I can purchase it here and later resell it to him (though not in Calif). If possible please quote chapter and verse.

    Sonora Rebel, how about some input here, please!! It wil get you a free breakfast.

    Old uncle Ho

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Uncle Ho View Post
    A California friend is searching for a particular handgun and while browsing the www.armslist.com/ website he found one in AZ. He and I am wondering if I can purchase it here and later resell it to him (though not in Calif). If possible please quote chapter and verse.
    I'm pretty sure you would fall under the federal definition of a straw purchaser, since you are really not buying the gun for yourself (and you told everyone on a public Internet forum that you were going to do so).

    And, interstate sales are prohibited by us regular folks (unless FFL to FFL) in
    18 USC, Chapter 44, Section 922(a)(1)(A)1 .

    And, assuming the gun he wants is prohibited in California (my guess this is probably an AR-15 or similar gun illegal in California?) another set of laws are being broken and you are involved.

    I am not an attorney and do not play one on television.

    Fred

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So, the question becomes, why even get involved at all?
    Armslist is not a firearms auction site like gunbroker and others. I believe it's more like a Craig's List for firearms. No questions asked, no FFL's used. Everyone promises to obey the law (wink, wink). Nothing could possibly go wrong. It's not like law enforcement is monitoring all the traffic on the website or anything like that.

    I thought I remember seeing recently where they were sued because guns that we're sold on their website were used for mayhem.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 12-28-2012 at 05:39 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Here's the bit of federal law you'll want to read for many firearms questions:
    18USC922
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

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    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
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    The concept of "straw-purchasing" is commonly misunderstood. Legally, it is a "straw purchase" if you buy a firearm to give or otherwise transfer to someone who is legally prohibited from owning a firearm. Purchasing a firearm to give or sell to another person isn't in and of itself a straw purchase. Otherwise, you couldn't buy a firearm as a gift for someone. Furthermore, federal law prohibits people less than 21 years of age from buying handguns from a licensed dealer but it does not prohibit them from owning handguns, purchasing them privately, or receiving them as gifts. If you buy a handgun (for example) as a gift for another person who is legally permitted to own a handgun, you are not lying when you answer that you are the actual buyer of the firearm. It's then perfectly legal to give or sell that firearm to that person.

    That said, if you purchase a handgun for the express purpose of transferring it to another person, you'd better be darned sure that person is legally allowed to own it. Even if the transfer doesn't violate federal law, a good prosecutor might be able to make a "straw purchase" case if it appeared to skirt state laws. Additionally, a resident of one state can't legally transfer a handgun to a resident of another state without going through a licensed dealer. Does it happen in face-to-face transactions? Sure, all the time. But it's illegal and if you get caught, the penalties are severe.

    Edited to add: I am a federally-licensed firearm dealer. I'm not just pulling this information out of my backside. My advice to you is to steer clear of the deal you describe. At the very least, it skirts the California law which (as I understand it) requires all handgun transfers to a California resident to go through a licensed dealer.
    Last edited by Cavalryman; 12-30-2012 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavalryman View Post

    Edited to add: I am a federally-licensed firearm dealer. I'm not just pulling this information out of my backside. My advice to you is to steer clear of the deal you describe. At the very least, it skirts the California law which (as I understand it) requires all handgun transfers to a California resident to go through a licensed dealer.
    While correct, unless its a husband buying for a wife, most FFLs don't want to hear the words "a gift for my friend"

    The ATF has held several stings where a man and woman pose and married and the wife picks out the gun and the husband buys. Then the ATF arrests the FFL. All found not guilty of course but the FFLs spent huge $$$ to defend.

    So I understand why a FFL would not want to do such transfers.

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    While correct, unless its a husband buying for a wife, most FFLs don't want to hear the words "a gift for my friend"

    The ATF has held several stings where a man and woman pose and married and the wife picks out the gun and the husband buys. Then the ATF arrests the FFL. All found not guilty of course but the FFLs spent huge $$$ to defend.

    So I understand why a FFL would not want to do such transfers.
    davidmcbeth, did you actually read Cavalryman's post...
    quote it is considered a straw purchase... ...if you buy a firearm to give or otherwise transfer to someone who is legally prohibited from owning a firearm. If you buy a handgun (for example) as a gift for another person who is legally permitted to own a handgun, you are not lying when you answer that you are the actual buyer of the firearm. It's then perfectly legal to give or sell that firearm to that person. unquote.

    if you wish to read about the subject further your attention is directed to page 165 paragraph 15 of official information from ATF Publication 5300.4 as Revised September 2005
    //www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

    therefore, legally, a husband can purchase for his partner, or caregiver for non-minor offspring, or a dear friend who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm can give a firearm. so must wonder if something else is amiss and/or you have been given mis-information and you are disseminating said mis-information w/o an appropriate cite.

    wabbit

    ps: INAL do not do it!!
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-31-2012 at 06:18 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Thanks for the input

    Many thanks to you and the others who took the time to help me out. The act turns out to be a great deal more complex than I had originally thought. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. Uncle Ho




    Edited to add: I am a federally-licensed firearm dealer. I'm not just pulling this information out of my backside. My advice to you is to steer clear of the deal you describe. At the very least, it skirts the California law which (as I understand it) requires all handgun transfers to a California resident to go through a licensed dealer.[/QUOTE]

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    commander, why in Heavens name did you only provide part of the section's cite unless your intent was you felt the need to justify your specific point of view apparently only partially and therefore incorrectly?

    and hummmm what is in the first portion of section 15 of the ATF policy you conveniently failed to appropriately mention:

    quote: Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm.

    In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. unquote.

    essence of what Cavalryman stated.

    quote in other instances...unquote

    again what was stated in cavalryman's post as he also indicates.

    Commander, how do you know your 'buddies' in your examples are not disabled from purchasing firearms in the first place IAW AZ 31-901.13(5)? HUMMMM?

    wabbit

    ps: why did you misquote so badly mate?

    ps:
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 01-01-2013 at 03:35 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  10. #10
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    commander no i did not mean the one you mentioned but on the other hand you are correct my cut and paste failed me and the proper cite is:

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03102.htm

    13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions
    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
    5. Selling or transferring a deadly weapon to a prohibited possessor; or

    wabbit
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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