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Thread: New guy needing advice-ish... Unlawful display of weapon. (Not open carry related)

  1. #1
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    New guy needing advice-ish... Unlawful display of weapon. (Not open carry related)

    Been reading the forums for about 4 years now, but just signed up.

    1. I was recently charged with an incident that happened earlier this year. Basically, got in an accident in which the other guy had some road rage and wrecked into me, seemingly ON PURPOSE. Immediately called 911 and while on the phone, pulled over (had no choice since there was traffic stopped in all directions.) Once stopped, I told the guy to stay in his car multiple times as he was RUSHING to my vehicle. I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...

    Now, one of the subsections of that RCW are as follows...

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    I honestly felt this guy was out to harm me or my family after having already nearly totalling his vehicle on mine. He did have the intent of harm by the look on his face, which I saw in my rearview.

    I have the 911 call recording which has all of this caught (wife was the one that called.)

    I know jail time is possible with this charge which is why I want a lawyer, BUT I cannot afford a lawyer and I feel my case is strong enough that I can present it to my favor.

    SO, the official questions...

    1. Anyone know a good lawyer in the Olympia area?
    2. What are the typical lawyer fees for this charge, seeing I have ALL evidence to go in my favor.
    3. What type of court setting will this take place in? Is it like a Judge Judy type setting, or will there be a jury? How long will this take? Hours? Days? I have maybe 30 minutes of evidence I can provide.
    4. Should I represent myself with the evidence I have?


    Things going in my favor.

    1. Clean record
    2. Positive evidence
    3. NRA member
    4. Prior Security Forces experience
    5. Even states in the law that I should be exempt
    6. Professional appearance all the time
    7. CPL holder

    I really appreciate any advice that can be given, (and know I'll hear at least once to "Find a lawyer" but again, I cannot afford one at the moment.) Just had a son 4 months ago and am still paying the medical bills for that.

  2. #2
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Been reading the forums for about 4 years now, but just signed up.

    1. I was recently charged with an incident that happened earlier this year. Basically, got in an accident in which the other guy had some road rage and wrecked into me, seemingly ON PURPOSE. Immediately called 911 and while on the phone, pulled over (had no choice since there was traffic stopped in all directions.) Once stopped, I told the guy to stay in his car multiple times as he was RUSHING to my vehicle. I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...

    Now, one of the subsections of that RCW are as follows...

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    I honestly felt this guy was out to harm me or my family after having already nearly totalling his vehicle on mine. He did have the intent of harm by the look on his face, which I saw in my rearview.

    I have the 911 call recording which has all of this caught (wife was the one that called.)

    I know jail time is possible with this charge which is why I want a lawyer, BUT I cannot afford a lawyer and I feel my case is strong enough that I can present it to my favor.

    SO, the official questions...

    1. Anyone know a good lawyer in the Olympia area?
    2. What are the typical lawyer fees for this charge, seeing I have ALL evidence to go in my favor.
    3. What type of court setting will this take place in? Is it like a Judge Judy type setting, or will there be a jury? How long will this take? Hours? Days? I have maybe 30 minutes of evidence I can provide.
    4. Should I represent myself with the evidence I have?


    Things going in my favor.

    1. Clean record
    2. Positive evidence
    3. NRA member
    4. Prior Security Forces experience
    5. Even states in the law that I should be exempt
    6. Professional appearance all the time
    7. CPL holder

    I really appreciate any advice that can be given, (and know I'll hear at least once to "Find a lawyer" but again, I cannot afford one at the moment.) Just had a son 4 months ago and am still paying the medical bills for that.

    First, Welcome to the forum, sorry it is under these conditions.

    Doesn't NRA membership include Self-Defense insurance?
    The coverage is a rider to the Excess Personal Liability coverage, and provides civil defense and liability and criminal defense reimbursement if you are involved in an act of self-defense. What's Covered:
    • Provides coverage up to the limit selected for criminal and civil defense costs.
    • Cost of civil suit defense is provided in addition to the limit of liability for bodily injury and property damage.
    • Criminal Defense Reimbursement is provided for alleged criminal actions involving self-defense when you are acquitted of such criminal charges or the charges are dropped.

    Liability Limit Options:
    • $100,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
    • $250,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
    http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm

    If so and you activated it, then why not contact them? After all, you are paying the membership fee right? Let the membership work for you.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-28-2012 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Forgot Welcome!~
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  3. #3
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    Oh wow! Totally forgot they had that! I will check to see if I have that coverage. Thank you for the reminder and thank you for the warm welcome!

  4. #4
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum. First off...

    GET. A. LAWYER.

    There are several good ones here. The man who represents himself has a fool for a client & all that, especially with the potential ramifications of a charge like this.

    He may be along shortly, but do a member search for OlyPenDrew. He's a forum member who specifically works with OC/self defense cases, IIRC, and he's located in Olympia.

    Also might be wise not to post too many details about the event here until conferring with an attorney. Might even be wise to go back & edit what you've already said.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    From reading your post, you have not been charged yet.
    If you cannot afford an attorney then the court can provide one for you if you meet the financial limits when a criminal case includes imprisonment.

    I would not discuss anything on an open forum for a couple of reasons, one there is a chance what you do post can get back to the prosecution and secondly in short order you could have several opinions that really do not have all the information concerning your case and only a couple on this forum can really give legal advice (an attorney), myself not being one of them.

    Depending upon the charge if charged will determine what your defense would be.
    Note that the use of force and self defense is viewed as being reasonable and not more the necessary and that it is viewed by a reasonable person knowing what you knew at the time.

    RCW 9.41.270
    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm Unlawful carrying or handling Penalty Exceptions.


    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Oh wow! Totally forgot they had that! I will check to see if I have that coverage. Thank you for the reminder and thank you for the warm welcome!
    Welcome to the forum ... post back and let us know if the NRA provides any support...its certainly the best benefit of being a member...

    Also, all the facts listed as being "in your favor" would help you upon sentencing but not too much at trial..IMO.

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    Thanks again guys! It appears that the Self Defense Insurance is not a standard benefit, but something you had to buy. However, I will call and ask if I can buy it now and use it even though it was almost a year ago that the incident happened. Probably not but it's worth a try. I think it was $165 for the coverage, but don't know if that is monthly, yearly or a one time fee.

  8. #8
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Thanks again guys! It appears that the Self Defense Insurance is not a standard benefit, but something you had to buy. However, I will call and ask if I can buy it now and use it even though it was almost a year ago that the incident happened. Probably not but it's worth a try. I think it was $165 for the coverage, but don't know if that is monthly, yearly or a one time fee.
    Read RCW 9A.16.110

  9. #9
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I read RCW 9A.16.110. It does not apply. The OP is not being charged with "assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030"

    Subsection (2) states: " (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs"

    RCW 9.41.270 is not of the crimes listed in subsection (1) of RCW 9A.16.110.
    Remember the Officer I believe in Everett that was found not guilty and tried to use this RCW and was denied because it was found it was not in self defense.

    Just added emphasis, after being found not guilty the Judge or Jury must answer the following questions.


    RCW 9A.16.110(4) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section is decided by a judge, the judge shall consider the same questions as must be answered in the special verdict under subsection (4) [(5)] of this section.
    (5) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section has been submitted to a jury, and the jury has found the defendant not guilty, the court shall instruct the jury to return a special verdict in substantially the following form:

    Answer yes or no
    1. Was the finding of not guilty based upon self-defense? . . . . .
    2. If your answer to question 1 is no, do not answer the remaining question.
    3. If your answer to question 1 is yes, was the defendant:
    a. Protecting himself or herself? . . . . .
    b. Protecting his or her family? . . . . .
    c. Protecting his or her property? . . . . .
    d. Coming to the aid of another who was in imminent danger of a heinous crime? . . . . .
    e. Coming to the aid of another who was the victim of a heinous crime? . . . . .
    f. Engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the crime with which the defendant is charged?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  10. #10
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    snipped ~~ I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...

    Now, one of the subsections of that RCW are as follows...

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    ~~ snipped
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I read RCW 9A.16.110. It does not apply. The OP is not being charged with "assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030"

    Subsection (2) states: " (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs"

    RCW 9.41.270 is not of the crimes listed in subsection (1) of RCW 9A.16.110.
    No, display or drawing a weapon under 9.41.270 is not a crime contained in 9A.16.110.

    But since 9A.16.110 is Defending against violent crime, and as the OP mentioned that the guy was rushing him and he felt threatened, the question would be.. What did he feel threatened of? Was he afraid of being assaulted? His wife was also in the car, was he afraid that she might be assaulted or worse?

    If so, then
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9A.16.110
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    Emphasis added.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110

    Additional crimes that a person can protect against as listed in RCW 9.94A.030 Definitions. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.94A.030

    (45) "Serious violent offense" is a subcategory of violent offense and means:

    (a)(i) Murder in the first degree;

    (ii) Homicide by abuse;

    (iii) Murder in the second degree;

    (iv) Manslaughter in the first degree;

    (v) Assault in the first degree;

    (vi) Kidnapping in the first degree;

    (vii) Rape in the first degree;

    (viii) Assault of a child in the first degree; or

    (ix) An attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy to commit one of these felonies; or

    (b) Any federal or out-of-state conviction for an offense that under the laws of this state would be a felony classified as a serious violent offense under (a) of this subsection.
    and
    (54) "Violent offense" means:

    (a) Any of the following felonies:

    (i) Any felony defined under any law as a class A felony or an attempt to commit a class A felony;

    (ii) Criminal solicitation of or criminal conspiracy to commit a class A felony;

    (iii) Manslaughter in the first degree;

    (iv) Manslaughter in the second degree;

    (v) Indecent liberties if committed by forcible compulsion;

    (vi) Kidnapping in the second degree;

    (vii) Arson in the second degree;

    (viii) Assault in the second degree;

    (ix) Assault of a child in the second degree;

    (x) Extortion in the first degree;

    (xi) Robbery in the second degree;

    (xii) Drive-by shooting;

    (xiii) Vehicular assault, when caused by the operation or driving of a vehicle by a person while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug or by the operation or driving of a vehicle in a reckless manner; and

    (xiv) Vehicular homicide, when proximately caused by the driving of any vehicle by any person while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug as defined by RCW 46.61.502, or by the operation of any vehicle in a reckless manner;
    So, if he felt threatened that he was the victim of a potential or attempted criminal act, the drawing his weapon could be viewed as a Lawful use of Force if it prevented the percieved criminal act.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020
    RCW 9A.16.020 Use of force When lawful.
    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    A cop would have dropped the guy, and his boss would have called it a righteous shoot. Union would have protected him (as would his boss and the DA).

    imho
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 12-29-2012 at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I read RCW 9A.16.110. It does not apply. The OP is not being charged with "assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030"

    Subsection (2) states: " (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs"

    RCW 9.41.270 is not of the crimes listed in subsection (1) of RCW 9A.16.110.
    As a defense, you do not think this was an assault?

  13. #13
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Been reading the forums for about 4 years now, but just signed up.

    1. I was recently charged with an incident that happened earlier this year. Basically, got in an accident in which the other guy had some road rage and wrecked into me, seemingly ON PURPOSE. Immediately called 911 and while on the phone, pulled over (had no choice since there was traffic stopped in all directions.) Once stopped, I told the guy to stay in his car multiple times as he was RUSHING to my vehicle. I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...

    Now, one of the subsections of that RCW are as follows...

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    I honestly felt this guy was out to harm me or my family after having already nearly totalling his vehicle on mine. He did have the intent of harm by the look on his face, which I saw in my rearview.

    I have the 911 call recording which has all of this caught (wife was the one that called.)

    I know jail time is possible with this charge which is why I want a lawyer, BUT I cannot afford a lawyer and I feel my case is strong enough that I can present it to my favor.

    SO, the official questions...

    1. Anyone know a good lawyer in the Olympia area?
    2. What are the typical lawyer fees for this charge, seeing I have ALL evidence to go in my favor.
    3. What type of court setting will this take place in? Is it like a Judge Judy type setting, or will there be a jury? How long will this take? Hours? Days? I have maybe 30 minutes of evidence I can provide.
    4. Should I represent myself with the evidence I have?


    Things going in my favor.

    1. Clean record
    2. Positive evidence
    3. NRA member
    4. Prior Security Forces experience
    5. Even states in the law that I should be exempt
    6. Professional appearance all the time
    7. CPL holder

    I really appreciate any advice that can be given, (and know I'll hear at least once to "Find a lawyer" but again, I cannot afford one at the moment.) Just had a son 4 months ago and am still paying the medical bills for that.
    May I suggest, it is situations like yours that make open carry my prefered way to carry. I can get out of the car, the person can see that I am armed...and decide if he/she wants to procede by being confrontational,<<<or not>>>> without my ever having to "display" my weapon.

    Oh yes, I haven't seen anyone point to (OCDO user name) "Rapgood" as a possible lawyer. He has stated he would take a .270 case. Give him a PM and see what he states.
    Last edited by hermannr; 12-29-2012 at 05:29 PM.

  14. #14
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Been reading the forums for about 4 years now, but just signed up.

    1. I was recently charged with an incident that happened earlier this year. Basically, got in an accident in which the other guy had some road rage and wrecked into me, seemingly ON PURPOSE. Immediately called 911 and while on the phone, pulled over (had no choice since there was traffic stopped in all directions.) Once stopped, I told the guy to stay in his car multiple times as he was RUSHING to my vehicle. I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...
    You state you were charged, what were you charged with? We see later in your post the DA is thinking about charging you with unlawful display, is this an additional charge or the only charge?

    Many will modify their story to make them look in a more favorable light and leave out facts that do not to gain support for their actions and often when support isn't promptly received then often the story will be modified in an attempt to get it and this is where law enforcement or DA will dissect the story as the story will slightly change causing doubt.

    What you are going through is what most do after an incident or after finding out charges are being filed or sought, this is what most needs to seek out before an incident to help relieve the anxiety.

    Stick to the facts of who, what, where and when along with evidence and witnesses and get an attorney.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  15. #15
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    It doesn't matter what I think. If the OP is charged with Unlawful Display of a Firearm, then RCW 9A.16.110 cannot apply. It does not matter what crime the OP was defending against. Read subsection (2) again. What matters is what the OP is charged with.

    This is the error in LkWd_Don's post as well. He dd not read, or cannot comprehend, paragraph (2) of RCW 9A.16.110. The jury could find the OP not guilty of RCW 9.41.270 due to the fact that he was acting in self-defense against the crime of an assault being committed against him, and RCW 9A.16.110 would still not apply because the OP was never charged with, nor found not guilty, of assault himself. RCW 9.41.270 is not a violent crime, it is only a gross misdemeanor.
    Considering that RCW 9A.16.110 is a statute that permits or defines defending against a crime being committed on the defender in subsection (1). Yes, I agree that subsection (2) revolves around someone who was charged with the crimes listed in section (1) being found not-guilty for the reason of self-defense can be reimbursed his legal expenses. We are not discussing legal expense reimbursment, so (2) is of no significance to the discussion.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110

    I will repost it again with emphasis. RCW 9A.16.110 Defending against violent crime
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

    Paraphrasing it, A person cannot be placed in legal jeopardy for defending him or herself from an imminent threat of assault, rape, or other violent crime, by any REASONABLE MEANS!

    Now, let us look at RCW 9A.16.020 Use of force — When lawful. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    So, the Use of Force statute 9A.16.020, tells us that display of a firearm can be considered as being a necessary use of force to prevent becoming a victim of a crime, and as it is a proper use of force, RCW 9A.16.110 can be used as a defense against the charges stemming from RCW 9.41.270, as according to 9A.16.110 (1) No person shall be placed in legal jeopardy for protecting himself.

    It matters not that Display is not contained in the statute 9A.16.110 (2) that permits reimbursement of legal expenses.

    Adding comment about gross misdemeanor:

    A gross misdemeanor is punishable by up to a year in Jail, I hope you understand that.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-29-2012 at 09:01 PM. Reason: See Adding comment
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  16. #16
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Here is why RCW 9A.16.110 specifically does not apply to a person charged under RCW 9.41.270:

    You emphasize this:

    by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

    So, if the judge or jury decides that the display of the firearm in violation of RCW 9.41.270 was reasonable means necessary to protect himself or herself, his or her family who was in imminent danger, than the charge is dismissed based upon the provision contained in RCW 9.41.270 itself, and does not fall under RCW 9A.16.110. To wit: RCW 9.41.270, "(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following: (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;"

    The reason that RCW 9A.16.110 cannot apply to a violation of RCW 9.41.270 by reason of self-defense is because RCW 9.41.270 contains the exception for self defense right in the statute. The statutes against assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030 contain no exceptions for acts committed in self defense in those specific statutes, thus the need for an additional statute which does specify a self-defense exception.

    The fact that a sentence of up to 1 year may be given for conviction of a gross misdemeanor is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
    Then you would have been better saying that it wasn't needed because it would have been redundant, would have avoided additional discussion.

    It still doesn't change that 9A.16.020 and 9A.16.110 relate to Lawful UoF and Defence against prosecution based upon lawful UoF. Meaning that citing them is not wrong, just as you were now explaining, redundant.

    I mentioned the gross misdemeanor because of your prior comment that
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    RCW 9.41.270 is not a violent crime, it is only a gross misdemeanor.
    If you did not wish me to comment on it you should not have interjected it.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 12-29-2012 at 09:59 PM.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  17. #17
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    "any reasonable means necessary..." This portion will be viewed by a reasonable prudent person knowing what you knew at the time and essentially decide if they feel the amount and type of force was reasonable and necessary.
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-29-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    "any reasonable means necessary..." This portion will be viewed by a reasonable prudent person knowing what you knew at the time and essentially decide if they feel the amount and type of force was reasonable and necessary.
    Agreed! And if the simple act of Brandishing a firearm was enough to back an aggressor down, till LE could get on scene, then if I were on the Jury Panel, I would view that as reasonable.

    LOL Knowing a few here do not consider me as being reasonable, you will just have to live with the thought of my serving on Juries.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  19. #19
    Regular Member modernknight's Avatar
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    Re: New guy needing advice-ish...

    So this is a little less of a statement, and more of a question.

    Most of us here (or at least a good portion) were or currently are military. Of course the ROE of the military says for self-defense you execute the four S' (which certain ones can be skipped over if needed).

    For those unaware of them they are:
    1) Shout
    2) Shove
    3) Show
    4) Shoot

    (Now from what I hear 2 and 3 are actually flipped, or so I've been advised, though it doesn't make much sense to me personally...I'd rather have distance (hence shove first) when I reveal a weapon and get ready to use it)

    This applies to civilian as well correct? If you use the 4 s'...and the "bad guy" does not follow and shows intent to serious harm/kill, then by following the 4 s' and being able to prove you did them would help his case (and by OP saying he was security forces, shows that he knows the 4 s' as well, and at least according to the post, followed them... though thankfully he never had to get to number 4.), am I correct?

    Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2

  20. #20
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by modernknight View Post
    So this is a little less of a statement, and more of a question.

    Most of us here (or at least a good portion) were or currently are military. Of course the ROE of the military says for self-defense you execute the four S' (which certain ones can be skipped over if needed).

    For those unaware of them they are:
    1) Shout
    2) Shove
    3) Show
    4) Shoot

    (Now from what I hear 2 and 3 are actually flipped, or so I've been advised, though it doesn't make much sense to me personally...I'd rather have distance (hence shove first) when I reveal a weapon and get ready to use it)

    This applies to civilian as well correct? If you use the 4 s'...and the "bad guy" does not follow and shows intent to serious harm/kill, then by following the 4 s' and being able to prove you did them would help his case (and by OP saying he was security forces, shows that he knows the 4 s' as well, and at least according to the post, followed them... though thankfully he never had to get to number 4.), am I correct?

    Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
    I will not say you are wrong or right.

    I will make a point that in the Washington State RCW's civilians are given a broader allowable use of force resulting in a Homicide over that extended to a LEO resulting in a Homicide.

    First I will cover that for a LEO
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040 Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.
    (2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:


    Now, that which covers the average citizen.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050 Homicide By other person When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I therefore do not suggest anyone support WAC. My EDC is either a H&K USP .40 or a Taurus 689 .357 filled with Snake Loads

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1130 View Post
    Been reading the forums for about 4 years now, but just signed up.

    1. I was recently charged with an incident that happened earlier this year. Basically, got in an accident in which the other guy had some road rage and wrecked into me, seemingly ON PURPOSE. Immediately called 911 and while on the phone, pulled over (had no choice since there was traffic stopped in all directions.) Once stopped, I told the guy to stay in his car multiple times as he was RUSHING to my vehicle. I felt threatened and pulled my weapon (CPL holder.) Cops arrived in less than 2 minutes. Was not arrested or cited for anything.

    However the DA is now wanting charge me for unlawful display of a weapon. You all know the wonderful numbers of that RCW. 9.41.270... Ya'll know the wording as well...

    Now, one of the subsections of that RCW are as follows...

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    I honestly felt this guy was out to harm me or my family after having already nearly totalling his vehicle on mine. He did have the intent of harm by the look on his face, which I saw in my rearview.

    I have the 911 call recording which has all of this caught (wife was the one that called.)

    I know jail time is possible with this charge which is why I want a lawyer, BUT I cannot afford a lawyer and I feel my case is strong enough that I can present it to my favor.

    SO, the official questions...

    1. Anyone know a good lawyer in the Olympia area?
    2. What are the typical lawyer fees for this charge, seeing I have ALL evidence to go in my favor.
    3. What type of court setting will this take place in? Is it like a Judge Judy type setting, or will there be a jury? How long will this take? Hours? Days? I have maybe 30 minutes of evidence I can provide.
    4. Should I represent myself with the evidence I have?


    Things going in my favor.

    1. Clean record
    2. Positive evidence
    3. NRA member
    4. Prior Security Forces experience
    5. Even states in the law that I should be exempt
    6. Professional appearance all the time
    7. CPL holder

    I really appreciate any advice that can be given, (and know I'll hear at least once to "Find a lawyer" but again, I cannot afford one at the moment.) Just had a son 4 months ago and am still paying the medical bills for that.
    Advice: Call an attorney. Rob Apgood or Liz Padula


    Robert Apgood
    2400 NW 80th Street, Suite 130
    Seattle, WA 98117
    Voice: 206-624-2379
    Fax: 206-414-2853
    Email:rob@carpelaw.com

    Elizabeth Padula
    2320 130th Ave NE Bldg E #250
    Bellevue, WA 98005
    425.883.3366
    Live Free or Die!

  22. #22
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Robert Apgood
    Is that where he gets his handle from?

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Is that where he gets his handle from?
    Nope, he moonlights as a real good rapper.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Is that where he gets his handle from?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Nope, he moonlights as a real good rapper.
    Yikes! My secret is out!

    And yes, Neo1130, call me. 206-624-2379
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  25. #25
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    Okay guys,

    My arraignment is on Monday. I have been told by a couple different lawyers that it should be dropped at this moment if I let the judge know it was a self defense issue. If it goes any farther after the arraignment, that I should call one of them. I will give the others listed here a call and see what can be done.

    Kyle

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