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A buddy of mine was threatened for OC today

turborich

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
Messages
176
Location
Las Vegas, NV
A buddy of mine usually OC's just about everywhere that he goes. He's not a show off or a trouble maker however he likes to have his firearm on him and there should be nothing wrong with this since it's legal.

I think he made a mistake but it shouldn't have escalated the way in which it did. He arrived at work where he drives a truck, while on the job he leave's his firearm in his vehicle which is parked. When he arrived at work he exited his vehicle with his gun on his side where another employee noticed it and immediately started calling him a punk bitch and a ***** for carrying a gun. He went on to say that in LA if they saw him in his neighborhood with a gun on they would take it from him and shove it up his you know what. I've seen the guy in question before and he's your typical gangster looking type from the south with a big mouth. My friend said that he then took his jacket off and began walking towards him in a threatening way telling him he would shove it up his rear. Being very un-confrontational and honestly afraid of the guy, my buddy said that he walked to the other side of his car, got in and locked the door. The guy talked some more crap and then got into his work truck. My buddy is a smaller guy and is pretty shook up over this.

I think he should have taken his gun off in the vehicle and secured it before he ever got out. Even so this should have NEVER happened. This gangster guy obviously plays by his own set of rules. If it had of been me when the guy took his jacket off and started coming at me in a threatening manor I would have stepped back and placed my hand on my gun but not remove it from the holster unless he proceeded to assault me. If it would have escalated to physical contact then I would have acted.

Any thought on this are welcome.
 

Frantic84

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
183
Location
Las Vegas, NV
There is nothing wrong with his actions, regardless of the Bad Guys opinion of your friends actions(cowardly, wuss, etc.). Walking away when possible is always OK as long as he stays aware of his surroundings. the guy was obviously not going to attack or it would have escalated to him being shot and this would be a totally different discussion.
 

turborich

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
Messages
176
Location
Las Vegas, NV
There is nothing wrong with his actions, regardless of the Bad Guys opinion of your friends actions(cowardly, wuss, etc.). Walking away when possible is always OK as long as he stays aware of his surroundings. the guy was obviously not going to attack or it would have escalated to him being shot and this would be a totally different discussion.

I'm glad to hear such a positive response. I agree that walking away is OK but like you said, you have to be very aware of what's going on. You can't let the other guy get a hold of your weapon. I'm trying to get him to become a member on this site.
 

Citizen

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Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Glad everything turned out OK.

If the thug is likely to be in the same lot with any frequency, I'm thinking your friend is gonna have a bit of a security problem leaving his gun is car from now on. Maybe he now needs a strong lockbox that can be chained to something in the trunk?

If company policy and politics didn't add up to trouble, he should probably report the thug to his employer. Anybody who behaves that way may already have a history; unless the company forbids guns, I'll bet they would like to know about this guy. This is the sort of guy who may be causing trouble and upset with other co-workers.

The retreat into the car seems smart, assuming your friend knew the guy a little bit or read signs that made it seem likely the thug would relent.

On the other hand, if a total stranger while moving toward me told me in strong hostility that he was going to disarm me and then assault me with my own gun, I would draw to low-ready at a minimum. Mas Ayoob, in his video Judicious Use of Deadly Force discusses verbal disarm threats. He makes a very good point with a bit of humor. He says you can assume the bad guy who is saying he is going to take your gun is not a Smith & Wesson armorer offering to give your gun a free inspection. And, you can (have to?) assume that he may actually be trained or practiced in disarming techniques and really know what he is talking about.

It does just now occur to me that any defensive display of weapon should probably be accompanied by loud shouts--loud enough for even distant witnesses to hear--"Leave me alone! I do not want any trouble!" Retreating if feasible, while shouting should give clear indications to witnesses that you are the victim. I would just keep shouting it to help impress it on witnesses minds. Hopefully, enough people will hear and see your shouts and retreat and pass that info along to the cops.

And, then, of course, be the first person to call the police. I do not have a high opinion of most police; but, at this writing, I'm inclined to think the maxim that whoever calls the cops first is the victim weighs more in the OCer's favor than not calling and having a thug paint the OCer as an illegal brandisher.
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Your friend did just about everything "by the book". What was missing was the call to the police and reporting the incident to HR. I'll bet there is a company policy on workplace violence and I'll up the bet that the policy requires reporting incidents of workplace violence. If your friend fears retaliation for making a report to either the police or HR then he needs to make that statement a part of the official written report to both the police and HR.

I am not of the opinion that your friend would have been entitled to any "defensive display of a firearm", given your description of the event. Taking off of an outer garment is certainly a threat indicator, as is advancing towards your friend, and we all seem to agree that the verbal threats must be taken at face value. However, not knowing Nevada law, My opinion is that until/unless the persopn making the threat "significantly" closes the distance* there is no legal excuse/justification for deadly force. Since your friend was able to withdraw to his vehicle I again see defensive display as inappropriate and probably (again, guessing at Nevada law) not lawful.

The back of my head is trying to tell me that Mr. LA saw the presence of the handgun as some sort of challenge, given your description of your friend as smaller and less assertive/abrasive. The back of my head is generally less wrong than anybody else in guessing at stuff like that.:)

Your description seems to suggest (or I am reading into it) that your friend does not want to be seen as a tattel-tale/snitch, and that he might even consider making a report as some sort of admission of a weakness in providing for his self defense. If that is the case, please help him understand how very wrong that is. This is not "under the bleachers after school" stuff that teenagers get into. He had a serious threat of bodily harm - probably serious bodily harm if Mr. LA actually did what he threatened to do - and needs to do everything to make sure Mr. LA is deprived of the opportunity, as well as of the notion, of carrying that out.

stay safe.

* - Tueller's "21-foot Rule" only states the distabce at which an attacker can be upon you before the average person can draw, aim (even gross aim over the slide/barrel) and shoot. The distance when drawing is in the realm of excusable/justified is farther out. Unfortunately, it is dependant on so many variables that there is no set distance that can be used. 10 yards is only 9 feet further out than the Teuller distance, which would be possibly .75 - 1.0 seconds additional time before contact. 25 yards "feels" about right to me and 50 is too far to convince a jury you were waiting until the last possible moment. 25 yards is also the maximum distance most people train at.
 

Frantic84

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
183
Location
Las Vegas, NV
However, not knowing Nevada law, My opinion is that until/unless the persopn making the threat "significantly" closes the distance* there is no legal excuse/justification for deadly force. Since your friend was able to withdraw to his vehicle I again see defensive display as inappropriate and probably (again, guessing at Nevada law) not lawful.

Nevada law requires that you reasonably believe your life is in danger.

NRS 200.200 Killing in self-defense. If a person kills another in self-defense, it must appear that:
1. The danger was so urgent and pressing that, in order to save the person's own life, or to prevent the person from receiving great bodily harm, the killing of the other was absolutely necessary; and
2. The person killed was the assailant, or that the slayer had really, and in good faith, endeavored to decline any further struggle before the mortal blow was given.
[1911 C&P 137; RL 6402; NCL 10084]
 

turborich

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
Messages
176
Location
Las Vegas, NV
It's a very small company with less than 10 employees and the boss is out of town at the moment according to my friend. I've tried to encourage him to make a police report however he's hoping the whole thing will just blow over. He doesn't want any trouble.

I spoke to him a few minutes ago and another employee has now told him that it's illegal to open carry a firearm in Nevada unless you have a permit. He also claimed that he knows a few police officers who will come down to school my friend about the law. I told him to just ignore it and stay to himself.

Why are so many people ignorant of open carry? Everyone thinks you need a permit.
 

ed2276

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
A buddy of mine usually OC's just about everywhere that he goes. He's not a show off or a trouble maker however he likes to have his firearm on him and there should be nothing wrong with this since it's legal.

I think he made a mistake but it shouldn't have escalated the way in which it did. He arrived at work where he drives a truck, while on the job he leave's his firearm in his vehicle which is parked. When he arrived at work he exited his vehicle with his gun on his side where another employee noticed it and immediately started calling him a punk bitch and a ***** for carrying a gun. He went on to say that in LA if they saw him in his neighborhood with a gun on they would take it from him and shove it up his you know what. I've seen the guy in question before and he's your typical gangster looking type from the south with a big mouth. My friend said that he then took his jacket off and began walking towards him in a threatening way telling him he would shove it up his rear. Being very un-confrontational and honestly afraid of the guy, my buddy said that he walked to the other side of his car, got in and locked the door. The guy talked some more crap and then got into his work truck. My buddy is a smaller guy and is pretty shook up over this.

I think he should have taken his gun off in the vehicle and secured it before he ever got out. Even so this should have NEVER happened. This gangster guy obviously plays by his own set of rules. If it had of been me when the guy took his jacket off and started coming at me in a threatening manor I would have stepped back and placed my hand on my gun but not remove it from the holster unless he proceeded to assault me. If it would have escalated to physical contact then I would have acted.

Any thought on this are welcome.

Thought: Continuum of force. Do not use a firearm against someone who is threatening to make mere, unarmed physical contact against you. Have other resources available to you to deal with the loud-mouth simple assault/battery types (i.e. pepper spray or stun gun), or obtain enough empty hand-to-hand combat training to dispatch a guy like that quickly and violently.

Pulling a gun and shooting someone for a misdemeanor level assault/battery 1. is going to land you in a whole lot of trouble, and a stay at the gray bar hotel for several years, and 2. is going to make the OC community look very, very bad.

Give yourself options other than the firearm, but definitely have the firearm available when deadly force situations justify its use.
 

renoglock22

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
168
Location
Greensboro, NC
Thought: Continuum of force. Do not use a firearm against someone who is threatening to make mere, unarmed physical contact against you. Have other resources available to you to deal with the loud-mouth simple assault/battery types (i.e. pepper spray or stun gun), or obtain enough empty hand-to-hand combat training to dispatch a guy like that quickly and violently.

Pulling a gun and shooting someone for a misdemeanor level assault/battery 1. is going to land you in a whole lot of trouble, and a stay at the gray bar hotel for several years, and 2. is going to make the OC community look very, very bad.

Give yourself options other than the firearm, but definitely have the firearm available when deadly force situations justify its use.

While I agree with what the guy did (locking himself in the car) I do not think that other options like a stun gun or pepper spray would have done much good. In this case the victim is a small guy and the assailant is a big gang banger type, I don't know about you but I have dealt with these type of people. If this guy was coming after me like that and I had a choice between pepper spray and a firearm, guess what, firearm it is. Because the other guy was big and acted like a thug and is walking towards him in a threatening manner would be a justifiable reason to shoot him. I can't fight and am pretty small so if a big guy is threatening me and coming too close I will draw and if he still comes at me, GOODBYE.
 

28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,534
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
Thanks for sharing this. I think he did the correct thing getting in the vehicle. Just one of those rare issues that will happen with the occasional run in with a dirt bag. It happing at work puts a completely different spin on how to deal with the issue. If your friend is in good standing with the boss and if the boss appears to be pro-gun maybe a one on one with the boss might be a good start. I agree with calling and filling a report with METRO however can understand not wanting repercussions that could jeopardize ones income.

I am of the opinion any confrontation involving a firearm that ends up with one going home to their family unharmed without having to pull the trigger is a win.

If firearms are not an issue with the owner of the parking lot then there is no reason why he should feel he should disarm before getting out. Standing depending on the rig usually is safer, quicker and eraser to do.

Print out the try fold, which has the NV gun LAWs and politely show it to your co-worker. Make sure you put the opencarry.org nv. web page on it and encourage him to read the postings.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
A buddy of mine usually OC's just about everywhere that he goes. He's not a show off or a trouble maker however he likes to have his firearm on him and there should be nothing wrong with this since it's legal.

I think he made a mistake but it shouldn't have escalated the way in which it did. He arrived at work where he drives a truck, while on the job he leave's his firearm in his vehicle which is parked. When he arrived at work he exited his vehicle with his gun on his side where another employee noticed it and immediately started calling him a punk bitch and a ***** for carrying a gun. He went on to say that in LA if they saw him in his neighborhood with a gun on they would take it from him and shove it up his you know what. I've seen the guy in question before and he's your typical gangster looking type from the south with a big mouth. My friend said that he then took his jacket off and began walking towards him in a threatening way telling him he would shove it up his rear. Being very un-confrontational and honestly afraid of the guy, my buddy said that he walked to the other side of his car, got in and locked the door. The guy talked some more crap and then got into his work truck. My buddy is a smaller guy and is pretty shook up over this.

I think he should have taken his gun off in the vehicle and secured it before he ever got out. Even so this should have NEVER happened. This gangster guy obviously plays by his own set of rules. If it had of been me when the guy took his jacket off and started coming at me in a threatening manor I would have stepped back and placed my hand on my gun but not remove it from the holster unless he proceeded to assault me. If it would have escalated to physical contact then I would have acted.

Any thought on this are welcome.

If the other 'gentleman' actually made a threat of violence to your friend, it WAS quite possibly, 'assault.'

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-200.html#NRS200Sec471

NRS 200.471 Assault: Definitions; penalties. [Effective through December 31, 2011.]

1. As used in this section:

(a) “Assault” means:

(1) Unlawfully attempting to use physical force against another person; or

(2) Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.
NRS 200.471 Assault: Definitions; penalties. [Effective January 1, 2012.]

1. As used in this section:

(a) “Assault” means:

(1) Unlawfully attempting to use physical force against another person; or

(2) Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.

Alternatively, the 'gentleman' may have been guilty of 'provoking an assault.'
NRS 200.490 Provoking assault: Penalty. Every person who shall, by word, sign or gesture, willfully provoke, or attempt to provoke, another person to commit an assault shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500.

[Part 1911 C&P § 150; RL § 6415; NCL § 10097]—(NRS A 1967, 473)
 
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oc4ever

Regular Member
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Oct 23, 2009
Messages
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Location
, ,
Get real, legal force with guns use is very time and situation limited

If the other 'gentleman' actually made a threat of violence to your friend, it WAS quite possibly, 'assault.'

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-200.html#NRS200Sec471




Alternatively, the 'gentleman' may have been guilty of 'provoking an assault.'

Just remember ,the use of a guns should only be used to stop/defend a possibly deadly encounter before police help is available. You are not the police, you do not have the power of the state to defend you and will probably be jailed, and sued for everything you own if you use a gun, no matter right or wrong. A pending fist fight with no other weapons is not going to rise to a level of defense to draw a gun and use it. Guns for citizens defense are not the perfect solution for all self defense needs. As others have suggested, if all that is involved is a simple assault with hands by the other party, the use of a gun to defend yourself in public is going to get you put in jail, in just about every state. The first line of defense should be retreat, which the guy did wisely. Now if you are being robbed of your wallet/car by a strong-armed robber, deadly force may be justified during the robbery, but not after (to chase the robber down to recover your property). If you draw a gun to defend a misdemeanor fist fight in public, you have been poorly trained and educated on the laws. If you choose to use a gun to defend yourself, the only statement you should ever make to the police, is that you were in immediate fear of your life. Do not make any other statements and ask for a lawyer, because you are probably going to jail no matter what, at least for awhile.
 

wrightme

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Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
Just remember ,the use of a guns should only be used to stop/defend a possibly deadly encounter before police help is available. You are not the police, you do not have the power of the state to defend you and will probably be jailed, and sued for everything you own if you use a gun, no matter right or wrong. A pending fist fight with no other weapons is not going to rise to a level of defense to draw a gun and use it. Guns for citizens defense are not the perfect solution for all self defense needs. As others have suggested, if all that is involved is a simple assault with hands by the other party, the use of a gun to defend yourself in public is going to get you put in jail, in just about every state. The first line of defense should be retreat, which the guy did wisely. Now if you are being robbed of your wallet/car by a strong-armed robber, deadly force may be justified during the robbery, but not after (to chase the robber down to recover your property). If you draw a gun to defend a misdemeanor fist fight in public, you have been poorly trained and educated on the laws. If you choose to use a gun to defend yourself, the only statement you should ever make to the police, is that you were in immediate fear of your life. Do not make any other statements and ask for a lawyer, because you are probably going to jail no matter what, at least for awhile.

What?


I have NO idea how you got THAT out of my comment.

My comment was ONLY addressing the actions of the aggressive individual, and NOT the actions of the person posting in this forum. Your post, and the title you placed on it, have nothing whatsoever to do with any view of it that I have presented. At all.


Specifically, the verbal threats, AND the actions towards the OC'er, very likely fit the NRS legal definition of assault. NOTHING in that justifies deadly force, nor did I ever make such claim.

And, specifically, the verbal comments made towards the OC'er, may also fit the NRS legal definition of 'provoking an assault;' which does NOT justify the use of force, nor did I ever make any such claim. In fact, I made NO CLAIMS WHATSOEVER as to what actions the OC'er should have made, nor what may have been legal to make. You are simply off-base to address your comments at me.
 
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ixtow

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Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
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Suwannee County, FL
If someone makes such threats and then approaches me; my gun is in my hand and I'm watching my 6 more than the obvious threat. A loudmouth is a great distraction from the guy sneaking up behind you with the baseball bat. Gun in hand and he still keeps coming, point. Pointed and he's still threatening and approaching; he's dead.

I'm definitely not going to hide in a glass jar and cry about it...

Shaken up about it, huh? I'm wondering if this guy has the resolve and fortitude to handle any situation in which a firearm might be needed... Why is he carrying it? I can understand being shaken up after you have to blow someone away. That sucks. But this guy is lucky Mr. Blowhard really was just a Blowhard. A glass bubble is a lousy device for hiding and protecting yourself.

My choice isn't for everyone, I know that. No one got dead, that's great. Sort of... This thug is just going to keep harassing people until one of them does the right thing...
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
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Fairfax Co., VA
If someone makes such threats and then approaches me; my gun is in my hand and I'm watching my 6 more than the obvious threat. A loudmouth is a great distraction from the guy sneaking up behind you with the baseball bat. Gun in hand and he still keeps coming, point. Pointed and he's still threatening and approaching; he's dead.

I'm definitely not going to hide in a glass jar and cry about it...

Shaken up about it, huh? I'm wondering if this guy has the resolve and fortitude to handle any situation in which a firearm might be needed... Why is he carrying it? I can understand being shaken up after you have to blow someone away. That sucks. But this guy is lucky Mr. Blowhard really was just a Blowhard. A glass bubble is a lousy device for hiding and protecting yourself.

My choice isn't for everyone, I know that. No one got dead, that's great. Sort of... This thug is just going to keep harassing people until one of them does the right thing...

Even those with less fortitude deserve the right to self-defense. Only God can predict whether the resolve might kick in at the actual instant of crisis.

Good point about checking behind you and mouthy distractions.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
He should file a police report, he was threatened. Also I would give a copy of the report to his employer.

This is Truth!

That is good advice however I think he's afraid of retaliation.

Another reason to file

If the thug is likely to be in the same lot with any frequency, I'm thinking your friend is gonna have a bit of a security problem leaving his gun is car from now on...........If company policy and politics didn't add up to trouble, he should probably report the thug to his employer.

Let the Boss know he has a wild card on the ground.

And, then, of course, be the first person to call the police. I do not have a high opinion of most police; but, at this writing, I'm inclined to think the maxim that whoever calls the cops first is the victim weighs more in the OCer's favor than not calling and having a thug paint the OCer as an illegal brandisher.

Sorry to say, this is much Truth!
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
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Location
Nevada
...You are not the police, you do not have the power of the state to defend you and will probably be jailed, and sued for everything you own if you use a gun, no matter right or wrong...

Where are you from?

You are in the NV forum.
 
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