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Thread: See if I understand everything

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    Regular Member Mykhael's Avatar
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    See if I understand everything

    Just wanna see if I have everything understood about open carry

    1. Legal to open carry in Missouri?
    2. Can open carry anywhere that does not have a sign up stating "no weapons allowed"?
    3. Springfield, Mo. is open carry city? (still looking for exact city ordinance)
    4. If stopped by LEO I do not have to give my ID or even answer questions from them, If I am not actually suspicious of committing a crime?
    5. If I enter a place that has no weapons allowed, and a LEO is called I then have to submit my info?

  2. #2
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykhael View Post
    Just wanna see if I have everything understood about open carry

    1. Legal to open carry in Missouri?
    2. Can open carry anywhere that does not have a sign up stating "no weapons allowed"?
    3. Springfield, Mo. is open carry city? (still looking for exact city ordinance)
    4. If stopped by LEO I do not have to give my ID or even answer questions from them, If I am not actually suspicious of committing a crime?
    5. If I enter a place that has no weapons allowed, and a LEO is called I then have to submit my info?
    Nope, I' afraid it is more complex then that. (You may wish to read the Misosuri Firearms Laws (Statutes) Have you taken the CCW class?
    I can't sit here and type it all, it would take like forever. Don't OC under those 5 lines, you'll end up in jail. You need to sit sown and have a long talk with some OCers....
    Missouri is a mess of complex do and don'ts, we do not have state wide preemption.
    Each municipality can be an issue, may prohibit OC, may require a CCW, in which case if you are engaged with a LEO he maty request to see your CCW, there is a list of "Off limits" places for firearms":
    Missouri Revised Statutes
    Chapter 571
    Weapons Offenses
    Section 571.107

    August 28, 2012


    Endorsement does not authorize concealed firearms, where--penalty for violation.

    571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

    (1) Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol office or station without the consent of the chief law enforcement officer in charge of that office or station. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the office or station shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (2) Within twenty-five feet of any polling place on any election day. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the polling place shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (3) The facility of any adult or juvenile detention or correctional institution, prison or jail. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any adult, juvenile detention, or correctional institution, prison or jail shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (4) Any courthouse solely occupied by the circuit, appellate or supreme court, or any courtrooms, administrative offices, libraries or other rooms of any such court whether or not such court solely occupies the building in question. This subdivision shall also include, but not be limited to, any juvenile, family, drug, or other court offices, any room or office wherein any of the courts or offices listed in this subdivision are temporarily conducting any business within the jurisdiction of such courts or offices, and such other locations in such manner as may be specified by supreme court rule pursuant to subdivision (6) of this subsection. Nothing in this subdivision shall preclude those persons listed in subdivision (1) of subsection 2 of section 571.030 while within their jurisdiction and on duty, those persons listed in subdivisions (2), (4), and (10) of subsection 2 of section 571.030, or such other persons who serve in a law enforcement capacity for a court as may be specified by supreme court rule pursuant to subdivision (6) of this subsection from carrying a concealed firearm within any of the areas described in this subdivision. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any of the areas listed in this subdivision shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (5) Any meeting of the governing body of a unit of local government; or any meeting of the general assembly or a committee of the general assembly, except that nothing in this subdivision shall preclude a member of the body holding a valid concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm at a meeting of the body which he or she is a member. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. Nothing in this subdivision shall preclude a member of the general assembly, a full-time employee of the general assembly employed under section 17, article III, Constitution of Missouri, legislative employees of the general assembly as determined under section 21.155, or statewide elected officials and their employees, holding a valid concealed carry endorsement, from carrying a concealed firearm in the state capitol building or at a meeting whether of the full body of a house of the general assembly or a committee thereof, that is held in the state capitol building;

    (6) The general assembly, supreme court, county or municipality may by rule, administrative regulation, or ordinance prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed firearms by endorsement holders in that portion of a building owned, leased or controlled by that unit of government. Any portion of a building in which the carrying of concealed firearms is prohibited or limited shall be clearly identified by signs posted at the entrance to the restricted area. The statute, rule or ordinance shall exempt any building used for public housing by private persons, highways or rest areas, firing ranges, and private dwellings owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government from any restriction on the carrying or possession of a firearm. The statute, rule or ordinance shall not specify any criminal penalty for its violation but may specify that persons violating the statute, rule or ordinance may be denied entrance to the building, ordered to leave the building and if employees of the unit of government, be subjected to disciplinary measures for violation of the provisions of the statute, rule or ordinance. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any other unit of government;

    (7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. This subdivision does not prohibit the possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the establishment and shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. Nothing in this subdivision authorizes any individual who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement to possess any firearm while intoxicated;

    (8) Any area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the airport shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (9) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;

    (10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (11) Any portion of a building used as a child care facility without the consent of the manager. Nothing in this subdivision shall prevent the operator of a child care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm or a driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement;

    (12) Any riverboat gambling operation accessible by the public without the consent of the owner or manager pursuant to rules promulgated by the gaming commission. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of a riverboat gambling operation shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (13) Any gated area of an amusement park. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the amusement park shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (14) Any church or other place of religious worship without the consent of the minister or person or persons representing the religious organization that exercises control over the place of religious worship. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;

    (16) Any sports arena or stadium with a seating capacity of five thousand or more. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    (17) Any hospital accessible by the public. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of a hospital shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises.

    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302 which does not contain such endorsement. A concealed carry endorsement suspension pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall be reinstated at the time of the renewal of his or her driver's license. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.

    (L. 2003 H.B. 349, et al., § 571.094, subsecs. 20, 21, A.L. 2009 H.B. 132, A.L. 2010 H.B. 1692, et al., A.L. 2011 H.B. 294, et al.)
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykhael View Post
    Just wanna see if I have everything understood about open carry

    1. Legal to open carry in Missouri?
    2. Can open carry anywhere that does not have a sign up stating "no weapons allowed"?
    3. Springfield, Mo. is open carry city? (still looking for exact city ordinance)
    4. If stopped by LEO I do not have to give my ID or even answer questions from them, If I am not actually suspicious of committing a crime?
    5. If I enter a place that has no weapons allowed, and a LEO is called I then have to submit my info?
    If you enter a place that as a no weapons sign,that in its self is not a criminal act,to be a legal sign it needs to be at least 11"X14" with at least 1" lettering,if approached and asked to leave,you leave...period, if the sign isnt of legal size ,and you are asked to leave by the store manager, you can: 1. leave,2. educate them on proper signage and then leave. If asked to leave by the store manager, you MUST leave.If you refuse to leave THEN you can be cited for trespassing. If a LEO is called, without you being asked by the manager to leave, my reply is I must have overlooked the sign, the manager should have informed me about the business being posted and I would have complied. There is no proof of trespassing if you didnt know you were trespassing by either a sign or verbally being told.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richieg150 View Post
    If you enter a place that as a no weapons sign,that in its self is not a criminal act,to be a legal sign it needs to be at least 11"X14" with at least 1" lettering,if approached and asked to leave,you leave...period, if the sign isnt of legal size ,and you are asked to leave by the store manager, you can: 1. leave,2. educate them on proper signage and then leave. If asked to leave by the store manager, you MUST leave.If you refuse to leave THEN you can be cited for trespassing. If a LEO is called, without you being asked by the manager to leave, my reply is I must have overlooked the sign, the manager should have informed me about the business being posted and I would have complied. There is no proof of trespassing if you didnt know you were trespassing by either a sign or verbally being told.
    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Re: See if I understand everything

    Here is some help...

    Open carry is legal in Missouri, but cities and counties may choose to make it illegal. You will not find a law saying that open carry is legal, because laws make illegal, not legal. If there is not a law saying you can't, you're good to go.

    Where you may carry, and the punishments for carrying where you should not, depend on whether or not you have a CCW endorsement. If you have the endorsement, the only places that are illegal are federal facilities (because the state can't override that), and buses. Everywhere else is legal, but you can still be trespassed and eventually lose your endorsement if you stay around until the police arrive once you've been asked to leave. In any event, you should respect private property rights.

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  6. #6
    Regular Member Mykhael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Have you taken the CCW class?
    You need to sit sown and have a long talk with some OCers....
    Taking class in February
    Would like to find a meet and greet here in Springfield to sit down with some knowledgeable people on the subject


    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Here is some help...

    Open carry is legal in Missouri, but cities and counties may choose to make it illegal. You will not find a law saying that open carry is legal, because laws make illegal, not legal. If there is not a law saying you can't, you're good to go.

    Where you may carry, and the punishments for carrying where you should not, depend on whether or not you have a CCW endorsement. If you have the endorsement, the only places that are illegal are federal facilities (because the state can't override that), and buses. Everywhere else is legal, but you can still be trespassed and eventually lose your endorsement if you stay around until the police arrive once you've been asked to leave. In any event, you should respect private property rights.

    So even if you have the CCW permit you can open carry?
    You will just be asked to possibly leave if doing so?
    You can enter a place with a no weapons sign even concealing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richieg150 View Post
    If you enter a place that as a no weapons sign,that in its self is not a criminal act,to be a legal sign it needs to be at least 11"X14" with at least 1" lettering,if approached and asked to leave,you leave...period, if the sign isnt of legal size ,and you are asked to leave by the store manager, you can: 1. leave,2. educate them on proper signage and then leave. If asked to leave by the store manager, you MUST leave.If you refuse to leave THEN you can be cited for trespassing. If a LEO is called, without you being asked by the manager to leave, my reply is I must have overlooked the sign, the manager should have informed me about the business being posted and I would have complied. There is no proof of trespassing if you didnt know you were trespassing by either a sign or verbally being told.
    Actually that protection ONLY applies to CCW endorsement holders. In no way does it apply to open carry. That signage is supposed to specifically say something regarding the denial of concealed firearms.

    RSMO 571.107 and yes, it's VERY specific to concealed carry ONLY.
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykhael View Post
    Taking class in February
    Would like to find a meet and greet here in Springfield to sit down with some knowledgeable people on the subject





    So even if you have the CCW permit you can open carry?
    You will just be asked to possibly leave if doing so?
    You can enter a place with a no weapons sign even concealing?
    Yes you can open carry in Springfield, even without a CCW endorsement or permit issued by another State. Yes, you will invite a prompt LEO contact, likely stemming from the Man With A Gun (MWAG) call to 911. You MUST learn the municipal ordinances of EVERY municipality you intend to Open Carry in as well as the County they are located in or you'll risk breaking the law. Example: Bolivar allows open carry ONLY if you have a CCW endorsement. Be prepared and professional should the LEO contact happen to you, hopefully it will not. SPD had a stink created a while back over OC at a Kum and Go courtesy of the MWAG to 911, even though nothing was wrong, nothing was unlawful, they pumped fuel and departed, shortly after the driver was yanked at gunpoint.

    If it's posted "No concealed firearms" per RSMO 571.107 please treat it as though they WILL NOT welcome open carry. Trying to OC in a posted locatino just invites a problem that WILL lead to a call to 911 and likely a police report being written, resulting in you looking dangerous, dumb, or both in the report. Police reports are public record and are part of the denying criteria for CCW in this State and if you start looking like a danger to yourself and others through outright disregard of their anti-gun beliefs then YOU face the issue head-on, not someone else.

    Simply put: If it's posted, take your money elsewhere. There are plenty of 2A friendly places to spend your money in Springfield.


    Here's where to find the bulk of Missouri's statutes in the RSMO.
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/statutes.htm#T38
    Weapons section: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C571.HTM
    You'll get a lot of RSMO information in your CCW class, or at least you should.

    Springfield is on www.municode.com however you will not find an OC City code there. They've just chosen to follow State law. Should they change to anti-OC they'll actually get the information out in the open and it might not go to ballot, the City Counsel might just vote on it and currently the Springfield City Counsel cannot be trusted.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-01-2013 at 03:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Yes you can open carry in Springfield, even without a CCW endorsement or permit issued by another State. Yes, you will invite a prompt LEO contact, likely stemming from the Man With A Gun (MWAG) call to 911.
    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.

    Trying to OC in a posted locatino just invites a problem that WILL lead to a call to 911 and likely a police report being written, resulting in you looking dangerous, dumb, or both in the report.
    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.

    Why don't you tell him there's a big scary monster under his bed that will eat him up If he gets out of bed after dark?

    Since I've been OC'ing, I've encountered hundreds of officers. Out of the hundreds of interactions I've had, exactly NONE have been in Springfield where I've OC'ed on several occasions. Of the three MWAG calls I've had, exactly ONE has even led to the police even making contact with me, and that was at a gas station in Wentzville in which the officer relayed the information that the management called him to ask me to leave...which I did. (Strangely enough, WITHOUT all the mountains of evil police reports and harrowing paperwork that you tout as all but inevitable.)

    Go sell the big bad police response boogeyman somewhere else. I just turned the lightswitch on in this room.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.



    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.

    Why don't you tell him there's a big scary monster under his bed that will eat him up If he gets out of bed after dark?

    Since I've been OC'ing, I've encountered hundreds of officers. Out of the hundreds of interactions I've had, exactly NONE have been in Springfield where I've OC'ed on several occasions. Of the three MWAG calls I've had, exactly ONE has even led to the police even making contact with me, and that was at a gas station in Wentzville in which the officer relayed the information that the management called him to ask me to leave...which I did. (Strangely enough, WITHOUT all the mountains of evil police reports and harrowing paperwork that you tout as all but inevitable.)

    Go sell the big bad police response boogeyman somewhere else. I just turned the lightswitch on in this room.
    I have OCd many places and times here in Springfield. So far, I have had not contact with any LEO over my OCing. However, I have met and know a couple of SPD LEO who do not like OCing and have commented to me they will 'inquire' with OCers to educate them to not OC. They are fully aware of the legality of OC in Springfield, but their personal preference is to be against it.
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    Good luck finding a county that uses RSMo 21.750.3 to ban OC.

    Always look for signage. If you see a sign take your money elsewhere. A sign is prior notice that you are not welcome and will be trespassed.

    Every LE encounter is to be treated differently and expect to be hassled by LE. If there is no hassle "you got lucky" should be the mindset. Record record record. Not every cop is a bad cop but you will not know this until that cop proves that he is not a bad cop.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    I have OCd many places and times here in Springfield. So far, I have had not contact with any LEO over my OCing.
    What? No SWAT response? No police reports? Say it ain't so!

    However, I have met and know a couple of SPD LEO who do not like OCing and have commented to me they will 'inquire' with OCers to educate them to not OC. They are fully aware of the legality of OC in Springfield, but their personal preference is to be against it.
    Make sure you ask these gentlemen what other legal activity we're not supposed to do.

    Are these shoes to your satisfaction, officer?

    How about this shirt?

    After all, even though it's perfectly legal, it might be the perfectly legal activity were not supposed to do. I just want them to clarify the legal things we're allowed to do, and the legal activity we're not allowed to do.

    Certainly, the legal open carry of a firearm is one of the legal things we're not supposed to do. I would like other instances of perfectly legal activity we aren't supposed to do.

    There are others, right? Because, if there's one, there has to me more.

    Ask those officers what they are for me, would you?
    Last edited by Superlite27; 01-02-2013 at 02:16 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    What? No SWAT response? No police reports? Say it ain't so!



    Make sure you ask these gentlemen what other legal activity we're not supposed to do.

    Are these shoes to your satisfaction, officer?

    How about this shirt?

    After all, even though it's perfectly legal, it might be the perfectly legal activity were not supposed to do. I just want them to clarify the legal things we're allowed to do, and the legal activity we're not allowed to do.

    Certainly, the legal open carry of a firearm is one of the legal things we're not supposed to do. I would like other instances of perfectly legal activity we aren't supposed to do.

    There are others, right? Because, if there's one, there has to me more.

    Ask those officers what they are for me, would you?
    The ones that I know, know the legality, it's their preference they are getting at. And if you wore a shirt they didn't like, they'd prolly discuss it with you.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.



    Baseless and unfounded fearmongering.

    Why don't you tell him there's a big scary monster under his bed that will eat him up If he gets out of bed after dark?

    Since I've been OC'ing, I've encountered hundreds of officers. Out of the hundreds of interactions I've had, exactly NONE have been in Springfield where I've OC'ed on several occasions. Of the three MWAG calls I've had, exactly ONE has even led to the police even making contact with me, and that was at a gas station in Wentzville in which the officer relayed the information that the management called him to ask me to leave...which I did. (Strangely enough, WITHOUT all the mountains of evil police reports and harrowing paperwork that you tout as all but inevitable.)

    Go sell the big bad police response boogeyman somewhere else. I just turned the lightswitch on in this room.
    Seeing as how the OP already has an OC-related off-duty LEO contact in Springfield I'm pretty spot on. SPD is a hit and miss as to which LEO might jump at the chance, then compound it with a new Chief that claimed his LEOs were somehow racist based on a statistical report flawfully reported in the media.

    Some are intelligent enough to handle things in a very professional manner, some are not. My recent incident (just last week) involved a SPD Officer that KNOWS that I carry or have a firearm within arm's reach 100% of the time and for some reason he decided to sneak up behind me and grab at my waist in a simulated pat-down meant to be a joke. He received a prompt "what the hell is wrong with you" from me followed by "isn't it a deadly force assault if I do that to you in uniform and you perceive that I'm after your gun, give that a little thought next time you think it's funny." You might want to check into any contact with LE as to if some sort of report was written, we know that some LEOs make the contact appear non-issue, yet they still write up a report; usually from a combative or resistive attitude. There might still be a report on the matter, though that is not always the case because of the unfounded and HBO (handled by officer) capabilities of what they do.

    By all means, keep up the OC'ing. The intelligent contacts are the ones that help calmly spread the word that the guns are out there and being fearful just because they're visible with nothing criminal going on doesn't necessarily mean the person carrying it is somehow a criminal.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-02-2013 at 03:42 PM.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    You might want to check into any contact with LE as to if some sort of report was written, we know that some LEOs make the contact appear non-issue, yet they still write up a report; usually from a combative or resistive attitude. There might still be a report on the matter, though that is not always the case because of the unfounded and HBO (handled by officer) capabilities of what they do.
    Probably not a bad idea. I wouldn't doubt that there is some kind of paperwork involved, even if it is a quick jotted, "Responded to MWAG, no contact made." or other note in documentation of an incident (or non-incident, however your perspective is).

    However, I'm not going to FOIA every scrap of paper whenever I suspect the authorities are "keeping tabs" on me. I'd be a very busy guy. I see cops all the time and, no doubt, some of them probably are doing a super professional job of making their response appear as simple incidental contact. (Although, I highly doubt they're good enough to make their "surveillance" look like the stop for gas, or trip for coffee that I often encounter them doing as I OC in my daily travels. That is entirely too elaborate and "tinfoil hat", even for me.) I highly doubt anything more serious than the above scenario of jotted notes has ever been done.

    Therefore, this is probably why my reaction to your warnings of unavoidable mountains of police reports and courtroom drama was a little incredulous. I'm sure there are unknowlegeable cops looking to harrass OC'ers for any little reason out there. Fortunatly for me, I haven't encounered any, other than the dope who abrasively asked me to leave the QT in Wentzville. (Even more fortunate for them, as I would have no qualms about standing up for my perfectly legal activity by recording any of their unconstitutional actions or illegal procedures and following up with the proper litigious actions.)

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    I agree Superlite, though after some of the stunts we've seen in St. Charles, St. Louis, and KC it comes to mind that they'll yank information for a report from a license plate if necessary to do a report just to make their supervisors happy. I like to see the written response: No such record exists.
    Heck, this can be accomplished by asking for a records check on yourself periodically. Most will know if there is anything they should be concerned about and we all know what professional behaviors and attitudes gets in response from LEOs.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-07-2013 at 02:14 PM.

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    "Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises."

    Wonderful line right there. As long as it's concealed, it's concealed, and you're not even breaking the law. XD So yes, you carry (OC or CC) into posted buildings, but if they ask you to go, you got to go...the key is to leave when they ask you to.

    I OC in Springfield with no problems to date.

    Missouri is OC friendly, but it's not pre-empted, so check city ordinances.

    #4 is correct, unless you're CC'ing and they ask to see your CCW permit, then you have to "display" it (not necessarily hand it to them).
    I would have a 200x15 userbar here, but images are sadly not allowed in signatures.

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    I did a FOIA on the interaction I had with St. Peters PD. There were no reports available and the call was placed to the PD not the 911.

    It was a non-event.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I did a FOIA on the interaction I had with St. Peters PD. There were no reports available and the call was placed to the PD not the 911.

    It was a non-event.
    Non-event? By whoes standards?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Non-event? By whoes standards?
    Can't recall her exact words and am too lazy to look up the thread to see if I put them there, basically if they are called on a suspicious activity and nothing illegal is found to be going on, they do not file any type of contact reports unless they feel possible future illegal activity might arise is more or less what she explained.

    I believe the vent to have been some what educational for the officers and I know the look on the officers face when I refused to "step outside" with him was a real education for him.

    If I had to try and be accurate, it was about as polite a harassing as one could get and it was fairly unobtrusive, but I indeed would have preferred to have been left alone 100% to enjoy my evening without the interaction at all.

    Life is short and I know going into it that OC had become so unpopular these days that some of us were going to have to take a few shots in the educational process, I consider mine to be one of the lightest shots, I know Doc and a couple of others have had some fairly negative interactions on the path to where we are today.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Got it. Non-event for you.

    A similar situation for another may not be a non-event. What are the lessons learned re requesting information on cop nitwittery? Force a paper trail to be generated? My one and only "polite harassing" prompted me to encourage the cop to generate a report that I could request, or I would use a audio recording of my polite harassing that would relate the actual facts of the contact. Simply put, I gave that cop an opportunity to document a non-event. I do not have any desire to negatively impact a cop's employment status or his career plans. But I will not tolerate cop nitwittery. So, in my view, there is no such thing as a non-event where a cop stops a citizen where no unlawful behavior is witnessed by that cop.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Got it. Non-event for you.

    .
    No, you don't have it. The police were called on the non-emergency line, investigated, and found no crime happening or about to happen hence no report beyond nothing to report. Because it was not the 911 line, no specific record or recording of the call exist and due to no criminal activity in progress or about to progress the call was filed as a non-event or similar term meaning they showed up and there was nothing to report.

    I was not particularly happy about it, but overall as stated, it indeed was far far less intrusive than most interactions and timing considered unworthy of any form of payment or further action required. I followed up on it in two manners and am more than satisfied with the results of both. That does not take anything away from my efforts and desires to see changes in the law to make such events a thing of the past including making them actionable free of cost to the victim in the future.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    No, you don't have it. The police were called on the non-emergency line, investigated, and found no crime happening or about to happen hence no report beyond nothing to report. Because it was not the 911 line, no specific record or recording of the call exist and due to no criminal activity in progress or about to progress the call was filed as a non-event or similar term meaning they showed up and there was nothing to report.

    I was not particularly happy about it, but overall as stated, it indeed was far far less intrusive than most interactions and timing considered unworthy of any form of payment or further action required. I followed up on it in two manners and am more than satisfied with the results of both. That does not take anything away from my efforts and desires to see changes in the law to make such events a thing of the past including making them actionable free of cost to the victim in the future.
    Please accept my apologies, I have a clear understanding of the situation, thank you. Did you record this encounter?

    Repeated for contextual purposes.
    My one and only "polite harassing" prompted me to encourage the cop to generate a report that I could request, or I would use a audio recording of my polite harassing that would relate the actual facts of the contact. Simply put, I gave that cop an opportunity to document a non-event. I do not have any desire to negatively impact a cop's employment status or his career plans. But I will not tolerate cop nitwittery. So, in my view, there is no such thing as a non-event where a cop stops a citizen where no unlawful behavior is witnessed by that cop.
    There is no requirement that I must request the report, but that cop knew that I could. There are, at times, an opportunity to teach "on the side of the road" in a polite and respectful manner. I have come to believe that a cop not generating a report because he stopped me without lawful justification is not doing me, or anyone else for that matter, any favors.

    A cop being taught by me, in a appropriate informal non-confrontational manner, was likely "better" than he being taught by his boss in a more formal manner. Whether or not that cop holds a similar view is unknown to me.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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