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Thread: European Murder Rates Compared to the United States: Demographics vs Guns

  1. #1
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    European Murder Rates Compared to the United States: Demographics vs Guns

    When the subject is gun control, those who demand more for the United States always point to Europe. Europe, they say, has more gun control than the United States, and lower murder rates. Europe, of course, is a diverse place. Some places have lots of guns and low murder rates. Some places have few guns and higher murder rates. The reason that many developed European countries have murder rates much lower than the United States is not guns or gun control. It is demographics.

    In 2006 the Department of Justice issued a report on violent felons in large urban counties. It covered the period from 1990 to 2002, and included the 75 most populous counties in the United States. The study accounted for over half of all the murders in the United States in the covered period.

    Revealed in the study was a simple breakdown of the demographics of the murderers that is not commonly available. Murderers were divided into three groups. Blacks were the most numerous at 46%. Hispanics were next at 27 percent. Non-Hispanic whites were last at 23 percent.

    While the study does not account for all murders in the period studied, it accounts for more than half and almost certainly slightly understates the percentages of Black murderers, because the latest FBI statistics (for 2010) show that when all the murders in the U.S are taken into account, the percentage of Black murderers is over 53 percent.

    No one would dispute that there are several distinct cultures among the American black population. No one would dispute that none of these cultures exist in Europe in any statistically significant numbers. Some of the Black American subcultures probably have very low murder rates. We cannot tell because we do not have the data to distinguish between them.

    Similarly, there are a number of distinct Hispanic cultures in the United States. These are all derived from cultures in Mexico, Central and South America, and the Caribbean. They are not Spanish or Portuguese. No one would argue that any statistical number of these populations exist in Europe. No doubt, some of these cultures also have very low murder rates, but without data, we cannot separate them out.

    Where does that lead us? If we take the 23 percent figure for non-Hispanic whites to be representative for the entire population (remember, it is likely a good bit lower), then the number of murders committed by non-Hispanic and non-black people in the United States for 2010 would be 2989.

    The population of non-Hispanic whites for 2010 was 196.8 million. Applying the 2989 murders to this population gives a murder rate of 1.52 per 100,000 population. We cannot get a more precise figure unless we have more demographic data than that given. Asian-Americans, for example, have historically had very low murder rates, but we do not have the data. The 1.52 per 100,000 murder rate is right in the middle of the murder rate of developed European countries. Add the Black and Hispanic numbers back into the mix and apply to the entire United States population, and the murder rate goes up to 4.2 per 100,000. Guns or gun control simply do not correlate to higher murder rates, particularly when you consider that non-Hispanic Whites own guns at much higher rates than do Blacks or Hispanics in the United States.

    There are huge numbers of German-Americans, English-Americans, Greek-Americans, Italian-Americans, Scandinavian and Swiss-Americans in the United States. There are no statistically significant numbers of African-American or Hispanic-Americans in Europe.

    As a check, you might consider a non-European example. Japan has extreme gun control and extremely low murder rates. The FBI used to track murders by Japanese-Americans before 1980, when access to firearms was relatively easy.

    The murder rate of Japanese Americans was less than half that of Japanese in Japan.

    Murder rates are driven by cultural background, not by the instrument used.

    European murder and gun ownership rates: Link

    Department of Justice Study with demographic data: Link

    FBI homicide statistics, 2010: Link

    Japanese and Japanese American murder rates: Link

    Dean Weingarten

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/01...mpared-to.html

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    Regular Member Keylock's Avatar
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    People murder. That's a crime. Has been going on since the first day the Creator wound up the universe and let 'er rip.

    This is simply about controlling people, to disarm them. The politicians, including Zero, are the tools. And we're the tax livestock. Now go figure out who owns the toolbox...

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I have known this for years and many years ago, before PC took over, these stats were more commonly known and seen. But then pressure was brought to bear and we began to see a shift in reporting (it is common for news reports to not include race in descriptions of perpetrators). It is the dirty little secret that must not be told.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Any LEO who works in an area with a (quote) Minority population can tell you where most of crime is committed.

    But that information as been surpressed under the name of political correctness with the officers who point it being called racist.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    <snip>

    As a check, you might consider a non-European example. Japan has extreme gun control and extremely low murder rates. The FBI used to track murders by Japanese-Americans before 1980, when access to firearms was relatively easy.

    The murder rate of Japanese Americans was less than half that of Japanese in Japan.

    Murder rates are driven by cultural background, not by the instrument used.

    <snip>
    I would not place much stock into a study that compares any other country to the US where "gun crime" stats are concerned. The US is the only country that has a mechanism in place to restrict the "state" from interfering into our daily lives. (I will not engage in a discussion re the effectiveness of that mechanism, only that the mechanism exists.) Japan should never be mentioned in "gun crime" stats discussions.

    Here is a link to a thread that provides some insight into the Japanese "culture" and their view of firearms ownership by the citizenry.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ero-gun-deaths
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A good book to read and I don't agree with everything he says is , White Liberals and Black Rednecks, by Thomas Sowell.

    Statistics alone don't prove shite.

    Approximately 50% of our population are male and the other obviously female. Men are struck by lightning 6 times more on average than women. All sorts of inane conclusions could be drawn, but there would be simple reasons to explain the disparity, without placing blame.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 01-03-2013 at 08:47 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I have known this for years and many years ago, before PC took over, these stats were more commonly known and seen. But then pressure was brought to bear and we began to see a shift in reporting (it is common for news reports to not include race in descriptions of perpetrators unless said perpetrator is caucasian). It is the dirty little secret that must not be told.
    Fixed it for you, thanks.

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    The Article proves your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I would not place much stock into a study that compares any other country to the US where "gun crime" stats are concerned. The US is the only country that has a mechanism in place to restrict the "state" from interfering into our daily lives. (I will not engage in a discussion re the effectiveness of that mechanism, only that the mechanism exists.) Japan should never be mentioned in "gun crime" stats discussions.

    Here is a link to a thread that provides some insight into the Japanese "culture" and their view of firearms ownership by the citizenry.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ero-gun-deaths

    Exactly what this article proves. It is counterbalance to the deluge of claims by the anti-freedom types that we would all be safer if we had the type of gun control Europe has, or Japan. This article is an antidote to that nonsense.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    A good book to read and I don't agree with everything he says is , White Liberals and Black Rednecks, by Thomas Sowell.

    Statistics alone don't prove shite.

    Approximately 50% of our population are male and the other obviously female. Men are struck by lightning 6 times more on average than women. All sorts of inane conclusions could be drawn, but there would be simple reasons to explain the disparity, without placing blame.
    Does it involve lightning not striking in kitchens?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Does it involve lightning not striking in kitchens?
    And the fact that women can't play golf (Gentlement Only, Ladies Forbidden) so they aren't out there to "finish one more hole" as the thunderstorm rolls in...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    And the fact that women can't play golf (Gentlement Only, Ladies Forbidden) so they aren't out there to "finish one more hole" as the thunderstorm rolls in...
    Or that last fish of the day.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Funny but touching on very reasons, it's individual actions, not gender. Just so happens one gender engages in those activities a lot more.

    Maybe we can get congress to pass a bill requiring lightning to strike women just as much because you know it's just not fair.

    While we are at it they can pass a bill require an equal amount of fathers die due to child birth.......
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Funny but touching on very reasons, it's individual actions, not gender. Just so happens one gender engages in those activities a lot more.

    Maybe we can get congress to pass a bill requiring lightning to strike women just as much because you know it's just not fair.

    While we are at it they can pass a bill require an equal amount of fathers die due to child birth.......
    Statistics do not reveal cause and effect, they reveal if there is anything interesting to study regarding the causes and effects.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
    Statistics do not reveal cause and effect, they reveal if there is anything interesting to study regarding the causes and effects.
    Exactly. Well put and succinct.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I think nationally we are doing a poor job in this part of the debate. We have a higher murder rate. I've seen many different rebuttals, but I think they all miss the mark. The problem with the anti-gun argument is the time frame, geographics, and murders included for the argument. Why let the anti-gunner's pick the time frame, geography, and what murders to include? They're quoting recent statistics and comparing for example the UK against the entire United States. Let's look at the last 100 years and compare all of Europe, and let's include all of the civilian murders of Hitler, Stalin, Ottomans, etc. I wonder how our murder rates compare in that analysis?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    I think nationally we are doing a poor job in this part of the debate. We have a higher murder rate. I've seen many different rebuttals, but I think they all miss the mark. The problem with the anti-gun argument is the time frame, geographics, and murders included for the argument. Why let the anti-gunner's pick the time frame, geography, and what murders to include? They're quoting recent statistics and comparing for example the UK against the entire United States. Let's look at the last 100 years and compare all of Europe, and let's include all of the civilian murders of Hitler, Stalin, Ottomans, etc. I wonder how our murder rates compare in that analysis?
    Don't look at the focus on the "rate" or ratio alone. This falls into the anti gunners trap.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer
    And the fact that women can't play golf (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden) so they aren't out there to "finish one more hole" as the thunderstorm rolls in.
    Or maybe women are smart enough to come in out of the rain?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner
    Maybe we can get congress to pass a bill requiring lightning to strike women just as much because you know it's just not fair.
    Suggest it to some of those whackadoo elected representatives who think that laws can change things.
    I'm sure they'd try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner
    While we are at it they can pass a bill require an equal amount of fathers die due to child birth.
    I like the way you think.

    There are several people I've 'met' through OCDO who I'd really like to meet in person.
    Wish I had the resources to travel.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 01-10-2013 at 04:01 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Or maybe women are smart enough to come in out of the rain?


    Suggest it to some of those whackadoo elected representatives who think that laws can change things.
    I'm sure they'd try it.


    I like the way you think.

    There are several people I've 'met' through OCDO who I'd really like to meet in person.
    Wish I had the resources to travel.

    LOL...you may have the point there on the smarts thing....

    I'm sure someone will make it the next petition....

    I know there are several on here I would love to meet in person too, resources do seem to be a problem for me too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Or maybe women are smart enough to come in out of the rain?
    Nah, more like you simply don't leave the kitchen

    Just don't tell my wife I said that...

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