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Thread: Force Science Institute says cops cannot stop "rapid mass murderers"

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Force Science Institute says cops cannot stop "rapid mass murderers"

    From the Force Science Institute's newsletter http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/current.html


    "You are certainly correct that many times these situations are over by the time anyone from law enforcement arrives. The known post-Columbine shooting times average +/- six minutes. Unfortunately, the known time delays in actually notifying police have also averaged +/- six minutes. Added to the six-minute notification time are the police response time, the time for locating the suspect (typically in a huge facility), and the time for stopping the killer. On paper, it would seem that we could never be successful. At Northern Illinois University, for example, officers arrived in just 29 seconds--and they still were too late. "

    And yet we are told to cower and wait for the police to arrive and deal with the shooter. When they are literally outside in the hallway they are still too late.

    If there is going to be any chance of stopping a "rapid mass murderer" it is going to have to come from the Good Guy with a gun who is right there.

    Will this have any impact on the plans to expand GFZs and attempt to take our guns away? As my dear First Sergeant used to respond: Is a wild bear Catholic?

    (They talk about when a single officer was able to stop a "rapid mass murderer" - and provide one (just one) (only one) example!)
    stay safe.


    Rapid mass murderers & 4-officer response teams

    [Also in FSN #218, Ron Borsch, lead trainer and manager of the South East Area Law Enforcement Academy in Bedford, OH, reported recent statistics on active killers and commented that in contrast to responding officers acting solo, a team formation of four or more officers has never successfully confronted and stopped a "rapid mass murderer." A Florida trainer comments:]

    Statistics don't show that multiple officers have been able to stop rapid mass murder because most of these situations happen so fast that by the time officers arrive the shooting is over, regardless of whether one officer or multiple officers respond.

    Another consideration is where these shootings are occurring and how departments in those areas are capable of handling immediate responses. In rural areas where officers are limited and backup is miles away, an immediate response to formulate multiple-officer tactics would create a loss of time and life. But in urban areas that have many officers in smaller areas, personnel could respond immediately to deal with the threat. Tactics have to be tailored for each agency, depending on the resources.
    If multiple officers arrive and deploy simultaneously, the perpetrator has to deal with multiple guns and targets firing at him rather than just one. But if the luxury of simultaneous arrival and deployment is not possible, the solo officer tactic would definitely be correct and that is what we preach to our officers.

    Ofcr. Mark Krumenacker
    Certified Force Science Analyst
    Training Unit
    Sunrise (FL) PD

    Ron Borsch responds:

    You are certainly correct that many times these situations are over by the time anyone from law enforcement arrives. The known post-Columbine shooting times average +/- six minutes. Unfortunately, the known time delays in actually notifying police have also averaged +/- six minutes. Added to the six-minute notification time are the police response time, the time for locating the suspect (typically in a huge facility), and the time for stopping the killer. On paper, it would seem that we could never be successful. At Northern Illinois University, for example, officers arrived in just 29 seconds--and they still were too late.
    Fortunately, against the odds, we have over a dozen examples where LE as been successful in interrupting and stopping an active killer. 70% of these successes have been by solo officers, compared to 15% by two-officer deployments and ditto for three-officer initiation. There have been zero successes for anything initiated by four officers or more officers.

    Assume a single officer arrives while the shooter is still active. The moment he delays to hook up with a second officer, the potential for stopping the killing drops significantly. To expect as many as four officers to arrive simultaneously is a flawed premise.
    Should multiple officers miraculously appear at once, they should be deployed in different directions (hallways left, right, straight; up or down stairs). With so much ground to cover, multiple officers sticking together as a countermeasure squanders both golden minutes of time and manpower resources.
    None of this is opinion. It is simple tactical mathematics. When law enforcement insists on being part of the "herd" or "posse" response, they place their own safety above the innocents they are sworn to protect.

    Multiple-officer formations are great for secondary follow up; i.e., search-and-rescue. Our take is to include two paramedics, with the four officers there as bodyguards during the secondary goal of stopping the bleeding.

    There have been successful single-officer interventions that pre-date Columbine. One such success in 1994 involved Andy Brown, then a 24-year-old Air Force police officer on bike patrol at Washington's Fairchild AFB when a rifleman started killing people inside the base hospital.

    When Andy arrived as the first officer on the scene, the killer was chasing people out of the building and began shooting his rifle at Andy. Dumping his bike, taking a knee, and firing four rounds from his duty 9mm Beretta, Andy delivered two hits, his last shot in the suspect's head, ending the murder spree. It was amazing enough to score 50% while under direct fire, but even more amazing was that Andy was successful with his pistol at a distance of 210 feet! I think you will agree that there may have been divine intervention at play here, having the right man with the right skills and the right mindset in the right place at the right time.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    nice find

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    nice find
    Nah! I subscribe and they send it directly to me. (I might weed out some stuff for here, but better to decide what not to post than miss something as juicy as that.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    thanks for sharing skid...

    but a query...somewhere i read the first call to 911 from the school went out o/a 0930 and the first responders didn't arrive until 10ish uh 30+/- minutes later without any explanation about this delay?

    did anybody else see this same timeline? or an explanation about the delay?

    wabbit
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    thanks for sharing skid...

    but a query...somewhere i read the first call to 911 from the school went out o/a 0930 and the first responders didn't arrive until 10ish uh 30+/- minutes later without any explanation about this delay?

    did anybody else see this same timeline? or an explanation about the delay?

    wabbit
    Not to be a smarta$$ or anything, but "When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away."

    AFAIK they really do care and really try to be useful, but - well, history speaks for itself.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    If the object of all this gun control was actual crime control we would have very few laws restricting firearm use by law abiding citizens.

    The left and anti's have been for years pushing their anti gun agenda by destroying the idea that guns are useful for self defense by the avg citizen.

    If you destroy the idea that guns are useful for self defense and that a person should defend themselves you do away with a huge reason to own guns.

    The anti's really do not care if people are shot or are unable to defend themselves because if is much more useful for their anti gun agenda to have them shot then not.

    Over the last 40 or so years they have been very successful in pushing their guns are bad and training people to bend over and not fight back.

    Getting the GFZS passed was much more important to them to delegitimize guns then ever protecting are schools If one can convince are children guns are bad in 10 or 20s years. They grow up get jobs, run for office, raise their own children to hate guns

    Thus lowering the number of gun owners over time and taking away their political base and power by reducing their numbers over time.

    Even though 9/11 was terrible I belive it opened many americans eyes to the fact it is not a good idea to bend over and grap your ankles but to fight back instead.


    Gun owners have had more wins then losses over the pass 25-30 years but the fight goes on and we can not give up.

    As we have seen anti's are not giving up.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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