Police, Best Buy, Santa hat, and no receipt

Well it has been a couple months of not being able to log into my account here at OC.org. My passwords were lost when upgrading my OS to mountain lion. Yes it took me 2 months or so to realize my password app was on my external HD! Anyways here is my latest encounter while OC'ing here in Henderson.

December 23rd I went to Best Buy to get my sister a laptop she had picked out. I have not been to Best Buy in years. I did not know that they had a policy of checking receipts and bags at the door when trying to leave. Before we get into what happened let me provide a little background. I have a problem being treated like a criminal and having to prove I own something to random workers after I buy something. I avoid stores that do this like fry's, walmart, sams club etc. There are many many reasons why I hate these actions. I know many here would rather just comply and stand in line to leave a store just to get "checked" and that is all good. Just not for me which instead of trying to make a scene I just avoid their stores. Well not knowing their policy I guess a scene was made. Back to my story.

Grabbed my wallet, .40 cal, keys, and my Santa hat to get my sisters gift. I was there about 30-45 minutes just trying to get help to get the right laptop. They keep them in the back for security reasons. So another 15-20 minutes goes by and the salesman brings the computer to the check out. I hand over cash. I put the receipt in my wallet and I was handed the laptop which came in a cardboard container much like a briefcase with a plastic handle on the top. I make my way to the double doors and there is a back up of people waiting to be screened for clearance to leave the store. I make the choice of by-passing this line and make my way to my car and go home. A store rep would not have anything other then complete compliance. He asked me for my receipt, I told him I just paid for it and I'm leaving. I guess that was the wrong answer. The guy reached around my back and grabbed the laptop, ripped it out of my hands leaving only a ripped off broken plastic handle in my hand. He then ran the computer around some registers and hid it. I was flabbergasted to say the least.

He came back to the door where I was still standing. I asked him if he was insane. He didn't answer. He then informed me that they will call the cops. Well shades of costco ran through my head and decided I should call them first. I accused the guy of robbery which in my mind is what had happened. I'm very calm, I do not raise my voice. I called 911 and they said to remain there and a deputy would arrive shortly. The 911 operator asked if any alarms were set off while trying to leave that would induce such rash actions by the store employee. I told her no. Now here is where I did something that I have been second guessing. After the call was made the employee who was at least 6-7 grabbed a fistful of my shirt and informed me I was not to stand next to the security panels next to the exit doors. My adrenaline shot up. A million different things went through my mind. As he started to pull my shirt to force me to move I pulled away got some distance put my hand on my firearm and told him to please refrain from assaulting me or I will defend myself. I remember for some reason making sure I did not say shoot, or kill or anything to that effect. Don't know why. I think that was the first time he noticed I was armed because his demeanor changed rather fast. He backed off and had a football style huddle with the store managers. ( for the record I could not imagine shooting somebody unless I pretty much had 0 choice and I was in fear of my life) He came back after the meeting and said if I was to just show my receipt I can have my things and leave. That there was no need to get the police involved.

Henderson PD gets arrives. I tell him what happened and the whole time he keeps staring at my gun. He basically wants nothing to do with anything and tells me to just show my receipt to the pugnacious mongoloid who oversees the pearly gates of the all mighty Best Buy. I pretty pissed off at this point and I tell the cop I'm drawing a line in the sand and I will not be showing anything to anyone. He asked me how he wanted to resolve this matter and I suggested he arrest the store employee for robbery. He declined. The managers came out and told the cops that they scanned the barcode on the laptop and it was in fact paid for in cash moments before I tried to leave. They handed me my computer and informed me that I should not try and be a hero and to just comply with any searches they want to do in their store. I told them to f@#$ off.

A couple of things I found very interesting. HPD never asked me for any I.D. or even my name. He also never made any mention of my firearm. I have had a few days to think about it and some parts of me are thinking I just should have been a good little boy and complied right off the bat and by not doing so put me in a position that could have escalated into something much much worse. The other half is of the thinking that sometimes you do what you think is right for the sake of standing up for what you believe. I guess the main reason of posting this story is even though I have had many many many encounters with people, store clerks, police, random drunk guys, and neo anti-gun people is I have never had that adrenaline rush hit me like it did that day. My first instinct was to slug the guy but for some reason I managed to remain calm and rational. I think that maybe a lot of that reason is because of this website and the many stories that people tell. The things they feel they did right and the things they feel they did wrong. So for that I want to thank everyone here and to wish everyone a happy and safe holiday season.

My first impression is that they didn't ask your name because they had already decided that there was going to be either no or minimal paperwork. With no paper trail, it's going to be difficult to claim that things happened as you say.

Make a "sunshine law" or "open records act" request, whichever is appropriate to your state and see what official record there are (besides the call you made to emergency services.)

Oh, and NOTHING prevents you from going before a magistrate and swearing out a complaint on your own. Just because the police can do it doesn't mean that you are prohibited from doing the same thing.

Fallschirmjäger said:

My first impression is that they didn't ask your name because they had already decided that there was going to be either no or minimal paperwork. With no paper trail, it's going to be difficult to claim that things happened as you say.

Make a "sunshine law" or "open records act" request, whichever is appropriate to your state and see what official record there are (besides the call you made to emergency services.)

Oh, and NOTHING prevents you from going before a magistrate and swearing out a complaint on your own. Just because the police can do it doesn't mean that you are prohibited from doing the same thing.

Click to expand...

+1 contact a attorney, sue them, there may be video of the employee assaulting, have your attorney serve notice that the video is part of a legal action, and cannot be erased or destroyed. I never never show receipts after I have paid for a item, have had this discussion with Walmart many times years ago. Unless they actually observed you commit a crime store employees have absolutely no authority to stop you. I believe most Walmarts have stopped this policy, or at least our local ones have.

Seems like you did everything right to me. Everyone has to draw a line in the sand otherwise you give up control not to mention all the extra time waiting on another line that provides no utility to you. I would write a letter to corporate informing them of their employees actions and that there is the 4th admendment and no one should comply with searches, that is what a judge and police are for.

Well you got your noted adrenaline rush and you dealt with the situation, maybe that is the silver lining. Thanks for sharing.

Best But screwup

"They handed me my computer and informed me that I should not try and be a hero and to just comply with any searches they want to do in their store. I told them to f@#$ off. "

As is right.

If you join Costco or possibly Sam's Club, part of the agreement is the receipt inspection as you leave.

BB has no such document to support their actions - the store is open to anyone who walks in the door. Frye's electronics used to do this...they would stop you at the door to look at your receipt vs. what you were carrying out. I asked the man why this was being done and he said something like ' to make sure you weren't overcharged.

Riiight.

Store policy does not have the weight of law. Insofar as HPD did not question you on your sidearm is a plus for them...but he should have been more assertive on site.

YOUR screwup was in not complying with the terms under which they sold you the laptop -- including requiring proof of ownership to leave. They were within their rights to require that you show a receipt before taking the item off of their property. That said, they should have been paying attention to the minor little detail that you were coming from the cash registers. If this BB is like the ones I've been in, the registers are along the front wall next to the exit door, and anyone coming from that direction is unlikely to have been able to sneak a laptop through without being spotted.

THEIR screwups were A), taking the laptop out of your hands, and B), use of physical force. They should have either blocked the door or followed you outside to get your license plate.

The only good thing that I see in any of this is that your being OC was a factor in maintaining safety, rather than anyone hitting the panic button.

Good job, except reaching for the gun. You were assaulted twice and robbed. The police may not want to pursue it but a lawyer will.

Greengum, you and I have basically the same story though mine was over a music keyboard. I won't go into details but I have not and will not EVER shop there again. It was a nasty scene.

TBG

DVC said:

YOUR screwup was in not complying with the terms under which they sold you the laptop -- including requiring proof of ownership to leave. They were within their rights to require that you show a receipt before taking the item off of their property. ...

Click to expand...

I thought this was NOT required except in a membership store, and that it was simply enforced through intimidation.

Can you please confirm this?

So is it the same at Walmart now, too?

greengum said:

...They handed me my computer and informed me that I should not try and be a hero and to just comply with any searches they want to do in their store. I told them to f@#$ off...

Click to expand...

I don't care how badly I wanted that computer, I'd have stayed in the store long enough more to get a full refund for the computer. After all, you paid for a box with an intact handle, too.

Isn't it odd how not being a deaf, dumb, and blind sheep in the flock is being a "hero?"

I guarantee this is on video surveillance. You need a lawyer and a court order.

I wonder how many people took advantage of the distracting scene to make it through the exit with unpaid merchandise.

DVC said:

YOUR screwup was in not complying with the terms under which they sold you the laptop -- including requiring proof of ownership to leave. They were within their rights to require that you show a receipt before taking the item off of their property. That said, they should have been paying attention to the minor little detail that you were coming from the cash registers. If this BB is like the ones I've been in, the registers are along the front wall next to the exit door, and anyone coming from that direction is unlikely to have been able to sneak a laptop through without being spotted.

THEIR screwups were A), taking the laptop out of your hands, and B), use of physical force. They should have either blocked the door or followed you outside to get your license plate.

The only good thing that I see in any of this is that your being OC was a factor in maintaining safety, rather than anyone hitting the panic button.

Click to expand...

Please provide a cite to any law pointing to the bold?

A couple random points.

I don't see the robbery angle some speak of. No threats of force or injury in taking the computer back from the OPer. Just a snatch-and-run. Theft. Not robbery.

Personally and speaking only on the info provided, I woulda loudly accused the shirt-grabbing assault to the cops. I woulda moved the receipt and snatched computer to second priority. But, that's just me; I'm not evaluating the OPers reasons for doing it his way. He mighta had a darn good reason for doing it the way he did it.

drdcup said:

write a letter to corporate informing them of their employees actions and that there is the 4th admendment and no one should comply with searches, that is what a judge and police are for.

Click to expand...

The 4A doesn't apply to private companies / citizens, only government. And the police can search you in certain situations, under certain conditions.
Assault & theft, however... Wouldn't it be nice if the employee had been carrying, so it'd be aggravated assault & armed robbery (or whatever you call armed theft)? Wonder how the cop would explain overlooking that? Actually, I wonder how he's going to explain letting the assault & theft go unpunished, esp. with security video.
BTW, get on that quick so it doesn't get automatically erased or something. Notify corporate & the store directly.

Contrarian said:

If you join Costco or possibly Sam's Club, part of the agreement is the receipt inspection as you leave.

Click to expand...

A long time ago, I had a Sam's Club membership. Went one day & filled my backpack basket (it's a basket about the size of my torso, with straps like a backpack) with a variety of things, plus buying a 50-lb bag of rice. Gal at the door insisted on seeing my receipt, so I handed her the bag of rice (which I'd been carrying in both arms), rummaged around in my pockets for the receipt, handed it to her, watched while she juggled the bag of rice & made a mark on my receipt (without checking anything), put the receipt back in my pocket, took my bag of rice back, & walked out.
It was minorly evil of me.
When I'm sure I'm not going to return anything, I've also been known to simply hand over the receipt & keep walking.
It may also have happened that I had a receipt from a prior purchase or a different store...
Or just hold up a hand & shake your head "no" as you keep walking & say "not interested" or "no thank you" (since they claim they're doing you a favor by making sure you weren't overcharged).
Have a look at www.papersplease.org or google "receipt check".

stop you at the door to look at your receipt vs. what you were carrying out.
I asked the man why this was being done and he said something like 'to make sure you weren't overcharged'.

Click to expand...

Uh huh...
Because the person they put on the receipt check knows the price of everything in the store, in his/her head, & can compare them simply by glancing at your receipt & making a mark on it.
They're doing it to combat theft by employees.
If they have such bad employees, I think they need to fire a few people or have better supervision.

My favorite part of shopping at wal mart is the receipt / check out procedure. I too had an incident where I was tackled, for not showing my receipt, however after declining to shop there for some time I was lured back with "low Prices" and opportunity for mischief. I basically use Wal mart for lead purchases. My typical experience goes like this: I go in through the garden (Dude) entrance, forgo the cart. Walk straight to sporting goods purchase two 90 boxes of clay birds, and two 100 round boxes of target rounds in 12 gauge, approximate total weight 65 lbs. I put the receipt in my wallet, and head straight for the (Dude) exit. I am usually making good time when I get to the check out and am not stopped that often, but when stopped I get very friendly, and cooperative, while I hand off my load to the person who is wanting to check my receipt. once they accept the weight, I become chatty and engage them in small talk as I am not in a hurry any longer. I am trying to see if I can get their eyes to bug out just a little. Not wanting to call paramedics, I pull the plug at some point by waving my receipt in their general direction, it is always followed by an affirmative nod. My receipt never does get checked, the person doing the checking will "profile" a little more before doing that again, and I got a much needed break on the way to my car... Win Win The best is when I buy batteries for my Peterbilt lol

Seems like an over-the-top reaction on their part. Having previously worked as a manager at Walmart for 5 years, I can honestly say that a door greeter never caught a shoplifter. Most stores including my current employer have security teams that make apprehensions when they are 100% sure an apprehension has been made. All of the stores I have worked at follow these basic guidelines:

Selection: The employee must physically see the suspect take the item from the shelf.

Concealment: The employee must observe the suspect attempting to conceal the item. ( sticking in the pocket, ripping the tag off, box switching, etc)

Continued possession: The employee must maintain visual surveillance of the suspect at all times after selection.

Passing the last point of sale: The employee must let the suspect walk past the registers to ensure they have an opportunity to pay.

I don't know about Best Buy but following those guidelines prevents stupid situations like this from occurring. The door greeters do discourage theft, especially by amateurs, but they certainly don't prevent it.

Sorry that was kinda long-winded...

Personally, I would have gone to another Best Buy and returned the computer. Then I would have gone to a competitor and bought a computer. I'd then send my letter and a copy of both receipts to Corporate. I would also submit a FOIA request as previously suggested.

How do you plan to pursue the situation?

MKEgal said:

The 4A doesn't apply to private companies / citizens, only government. And the police can search you in certain situations, under certain conditions.
Assault & theft, however... Wouldn't it be nice if the employee had been carrying, so it'd be aggravated assault & armed robbery (or whatever you call armed theft)? Wonder how the cop would explain overlooking that? Actually, I wonder how he's going to explain letting the assault & theft go unpunished, esp. with security video.
BTW, get on that quick so it doesn't get automatically erased or something. Notify corporate & the store directly.


A long time ago, I had a Sam's Club membership. Went one day & filled my backpack basket (it's a basket about the size of my torso, with straps like a backpack) with a variety of things, plus buying a 50-lb bag of rice. Gal at the door insisted on seeing my receipt, so I handed her the bag of rice (which I'd been carrying in both arms), rummaged around in my pockets for the receipt, handed it to her, watched while she juggled the bag of rice & made a mark on my receipt (without checking anything), put the receipt back in my pocket, took my bag of rice back, & walked out.
It was minorly evil of me.
When I'm sure I'm not going to return anything, I've also been known to simply hand over the receipt & keep walking.
It may also have happened that I had a receipt from a prior purchase or a different store...
Or just hold up a hand & shake your head "no" as you keep walking & say "not interested" or "no thank you" (since they claim they're doing you a favor by making sure you weren't overcharged).
Have a look at www.papersplease.org or google "receipt check".


Uh huh...
Because the person they put on the receipt check knows the price of everything in the store, in his/her head, & can compare them simply by glancing at your receipt & making a mark on it.
They're doing it to combat theft by employees.
If they have such bad employees, I think they need to fire a few people or have better supervision.

Click to expand...

Sorry MKEgal, I have to disagree with your last statement. I work for Sam's Club, and workwd the exit doors. It is certainly not for combating theft by employees. Why check recipts of customers who aren't employyes if it were? Besides, the emoloyees can walk off with stuff easily without having to worry about a recipet check anyhow.

The purpose isn't to check if you were overcharged but rather UNDER charged.. meaning there is something (usually something expensive) that you didn't pay for. Sometimes it's a simple mistake like a case of water in the bottom of the cart, other times it's something like a customer walking out with an Xbox hoping we won't catch it in the pile of stuff in the cart.

Back to the employee thing, our yearly bonus is more than enough to outshine any amount of stuff we could hope to steal so we have no incentive to steal... as lost product means less bonus for us.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

greengum said:

Grabbed my wallet, .40 cal, keys, and my Santa hat to get my sisters gift.

Click to expand...

.40 cal? They make wheel guns in .40. I know they make .45 acp. Or did you get yourself one of those fancy modern pistol?

Sabotage70 said:

.40 cal? They make wheel guns in .40....

Click to expand...

Off the top of my head, the S&W M610, and the Taurus M405.

Not to mention all the old six-shooters in .38-40, which is actually a .40 caliber bullet.

...I know they make .45 acp...

Click to expand...

As soon as my Milt Sparks holster arrives, I'll be packing my S&W M625 on occasion. I'm two months into the expected three-month wait.

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:

My favorite part of shopping at wal mart is the receipt / check out procedure. I too had an incident where I was tackled, for not showing my receipt, however after declining to shop there for some time I was lured back with "low Prices" and opportunity for mischief. I basically use Wal mart for lead purchases. My typical experience goes like this: I go in through the garden (Dude) entrance, forgo the cart. Walk straight to sporting goods purchase two 90 boxes of clay birds, and two 100 round boxes of target rounds in 12 gauge, approximate total weight 65 lbs. I put the receipt in my wallet, and head straight for the (Dude) exit. I am usually making good time when I get to the check out and am not stopped that often, but when stopped I get very friendly, and cooperative, while I hand off my load to the person who is wanting to check my receipt. once they accept the weight, I become chatty and engage them in small talk as I am not in a hurry any longer. I am trying to see if I can get their eyes to bug out just a little. Not wanting to call paramedics, I pull the plug at some point by waving my receipt in their general direction, it is always followed by an affirmative nod. My receipt never does get checked, the person doing the checking will "profile" a little more before doing that again, and I got a much needed break on the way to my car... Win Win The best is when I buy batteries for my Peterbilt lol

Click to expand...

What's with the dog and pony show? Just tell them no. The biggest show I've ever put up was asking the Fry's Electronics guy if he was going to illegally detain me. He said no.

A Walmart woman once said "Sir, I told you to I need to see your receipt". I replied "and I told you no."

It's never gone further than that. I shop at Walmart often and Fry's a few times a year. I never show my receipts anywhere and other than a Walmart employee annoying me by asking a second time it's always without incident. I had no issue at Best Buy refusing to show receipt at all, they don't even have a door checker here. Had this happened to me I would sue the store and employee for assault. It does not sound like the OP was detained though, just his merchandise.

I am not aware of laws in Nevada.

This is the law in AZ. I don't think refusing to show your receipt is reasonable cause for detainment.

ETA: Section A clearly defines reasonable cause and it says nothing about receipts. Again, Nevada may be different.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/01805.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

A. A person commits shoplifting if, while in an establishment in which merchandise is displayed for sale, the person knowingly obtains such goods of another with the intent to deprive that person of such goods by:

1. Removing any of the goods from the immediate display or from any other place within the establishment without paying the purchase price; or
2. Charging the purchase price of the goods to a fictitious person or any person without that person's authority; or
3. Paying less than the purchase price of the goods by some trick or artifice such as altering, removing, substituting or otherwise disfiguring any label, price tag or marking; or
4. Transferring the goods from one container to another; or
5. Concealment.
B. A person is presumed to have the necessary culpable mental state pursuant to subsection A of this section if the person does either of the following:
1. Knowingly conceals on himself or another person unpurchased merchandise of any mercantile establishment while within the mercantile establishment.
2. Uses an artifice, instrument, container, device or other article to facilitate the shoplifting.
C. A merchant, or a merchant's agent or employee, with reasonable cause, may detain on the premises in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time any person who is suspected of shoplifting as prescribed in subsection A of this section for questioning or summoning a law enforcement officer.

D. Reasonable cause is a defense to a civil or criminal action against a peace officer, a merchant or an agent or employee of the merchant for false arrest, false or unlawful imprisonment or wrongful detention.

E. If a minor engages in conduct that violates subsection A of this section, notwithstanding the fact that the minor may not be held responsible because of the person's minority, any merchant who is injured by the shoplifting of the minor may bring a civil action against the parent or legal guardian of the minor under either section 12-661 or 12-692.
F. Any merchant who is injured by the shoplifting of an adult or emancipated minor in violation of subsection A of this section may bring a civil action against the adult or emancipated minor pursuant to section 12-691.
G. In imposing sentence on a person who is convicted of violating this section, the court may require any person to perform public services designated by the court in addition to or in lieu of any fine that the court might impose.
H. Shoplifting property with a value of two thousand dollars or more, shoplifting property during any continuing criminal episode or shoplifting property if done to promote, further or assist any criminal street gang or criminal syndicate is a class 5 felony. Shoplifting property with a value of one thousand dollars or more but less than two thousand dollars is a class 6 felony. Shoplifting property valued at less than one thousand dollars is a class 1 misdemeanor, unless the property is a firearm in which case the shoplifting is a class 6 felony. For the purposes of this subsection, "continuing criminal episode" means theft of property with a value of one thousand five hundred dollars or more if committed during at least three separate incidences within a period of ninety consecutive days.
I. A person who in the course of shoplifting uses an artifice, instrument, container, device or other article with the intent to facilitate shoplifting or who commits shoplifting and who has previously committed or been convicted within the past five years of two or more offenses involving burglary, shoplifting, robbery, organized retail theft or theft is guilty of a class 4 felony.

Click to expand...

I was met in the parking lot by a Home Depot manager once because I don't stop and look dumb-founded when an alarm goes off as I leave the store with merchandise I paid for. It's amazing how we know more about their policies and applicable state laws than they do.