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Thread: Comment on Grapeshot words of wisdom. (opencarry of AR right after SandyHook

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    Comment on Grapeshot words of wisdom. (opencarry of AR right after SandyHook

    We are embroiled in a public relations battle for the hearts and minds of John Q. Public. The idea is not to prove that we can do something of this nature "because we can", especially not now after the recent events in CT. http://www.kjonline.com/news/Police-...y-gun-law.html I couldn't agree with Grapeshot more, what a stupid and thoughtless act right after the killing of all those children.
    "Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought."

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    Re: Comment on Grapeshot words of wisdom. (opencarry of AR right after SandyHook

    In before this is locked.

    People are too insensitive in this day and age.

    Would you want me to not drive a car after a madman runs a school bus full of kids off the road? Then why not open carry after an incident like this?

    The Newtown shooter also used a Glock and Sig. Should i not OC a Glock or Sig and only carry an XD after an incident like this?

    So why not OC a long gun? To appease other people's irrational fears?

    The "don't OC an AR" argument is the same one the antis make about OCing in general.

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    Rights are rights are rights are rights.

    So, our AR Santa didn't coordinate his action with the rest of us so we could all be comfortable, approve, and coordinate against a possible police campaign to revise gun laws? So, what?

    In case nobody noticed, the anti-gunners don't need an excuse to try to infringe. Doing something they can latch onto like our Santa is a nullity. The bad guy at the school had two semi-auto pistols with him; if anybody had complained about the Santa OCer carrying pistol, you can bet the anti-gunner cops would have used that.

    Also, look for the omissions in the news story that tell the police lie. You know damned good and well that cops can and do judge people by more than just the words they use. If the Santa OCer had been acting nutty, or fiddling with the gun, or seemed drugged, or whatever, you know the cops woulda hauled him in. In that they let him go, you can tell all they had, literally, was a guy walking down the street with an AR, who apparently knew his rights and exercised them. I'm betting he exercised them politely, or the cops woulda used his hostility as a pretext to question him further or actually detain him. Also, notice it was Christmas eve. There are no schools open on Christmas eve. Nor on Christmas day. Probably not until Jan 2. So, what was this AR Santa going to be doing with this AR? The cops knew he was likely an OCer in the first minute of the encounter. But, oh no. We don't hear their reports of how they evaluated his behavior; we hear subtle whining that amounts to the Fourth Amendment being too stringent whenever a different somebody carries a similar gun in another state.

    The top cops are essentially saying they want to make it easy to harass OCers by changing gun laws, or chill the desire to OC altogether--for their own benefit.

    Rights are rights are rights are rights.

    The thing to do is launch a campaign ridiculing the top cops and exposing their specious arguments.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-04-2013 at 02:22 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I couldn't agree with Grapeshot more, what a stupid and thoughtless act right after the killing of all those children.
    |||||||||
    vvvvvvvv

    Rights are rights are rights are rights.
    If the gun-control lobbies are successful in banning/restricting weapons used in less than 3% of firearms crime you can bet they'll soon go after the ones used in the majority of firearms crime.

    But I'll make you an offer, JonJon_Jon.. I will argue and fight for all of your rights even if you won't do the same for me -- because it's the right thing to do.

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    Re: Comment on Grapeshot words of wisdom. (opencarry of AR right after SandyHook

    Quote Originally Posted by RLTW! View Post
    But I'll make you an offer, JonJon_Jon.. I will argue and fight for all of your rights even if you won't do the same for me -- because it's the right thing to do.
    This.

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    We have the right to do it, and we should fight to do it. But doing what he did sets us back, it did not help us fight for our rights. When we start to lose the general public supporting guns rights, thats when we lose the right to have them. And doing what he did put a huge blackeye on open carry in maine. So much so, that Im fairly certain his actions alone is what sparked the meeting police will have about stopping open carry.

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    The thread I started about this "incident" got locked because, even though I specifically said I was focusing on the police response to an OC'er, the person happened to be carrying a long gun and I apparently violated the rules.

    So, watch what you say I guess. This will probably get locked for even mentioning it.
    Once more into the fray.
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    People need to learn a lesson from Sandy Hook and its not that guns are evil.

    Its that the gov't cannot protect you or you kids; only citizens can do this.

    No one has pointed a finger at Newtown and said ... why did you not buy a better door?

    Malloy said he shot a entry-way but his staff has no idea what this meant...its pure crapolla.

    Towns were put on notice after the CO incident and have done very little to affect security...they would rather have kids die for their political causes.

    Improvement in responses are just that responses, not prevention.

    And 1000 kids could die .. the 2nd amendment still means what it says

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
    We have the right to do it, and we should fight to do it. But doing what he did sets us back, it did not help us fight for our rights. When we start to lose the general public supporting guns rights, thats when we lose the right to have them. And doing what he did put a huge blackeye on open carry in maine. So much so, that Im fairly certain his actions alone is what sparked the meeting police will have about stopping open carry.
    NO!! Blaming him for the anti-gunner's reaction is like blaming a woman for being raped.

    If there is any "set back" from this, it will be the anti-gunners who set us back.

    Stop blaming people who are exercising enumerated rights--it only helps the anti-gunners. Please quit doing their self-appointed job for them. The correct target is the people who would take away or diminish a right.

    Over the years of this forum, one thing we've clearly learned is that freedom means anybody and everybody is going to exercise their rights. And, not in a coordinated fashion. Some are smart, some are dull. Some are sophisticated, some are rednecks. The solution is to be ready to counter-attack when the anti-gunners make a move, not complain that the guy who was well within his rights was wrong.

    Like I said, counter-attack. All the Maine guys should be ridiculing the cops and the whiners with letters to the editor, comments sections of blogs, letters to state legislators, etc.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-05-2013 at 12:16 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonjon_jon View Post
    We are embroiled in a public relations battle for the hearts and minds of John Q. Public. The idea is not to prove that we can do something of this nature "because we can", especially not now after the recent events in CT. http://www.kjonline.com/news/Police-...y-gun-law.html I couldn't agree with Grapeshot more, what a stupid and thoughtless act right after the killing of all those children.
    Nice answer.

    What you propose is that people voluntarily give up their rights so they're not forced too?

    What's really on my mind.

    **** PC, PR and John Q. public. Rights are moved forward by taking action, not being pussies. You owe most of your rights to people who said enough is enough and pushed the envelope. In fact you owe many rights to criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
    We have the right to do it, and we should fight to do it. But doing what he did sets us back, it did not help us fight for our rights. When we start to lose the general public supporting guns rights, thats when we lose the right to have them. And doing what he did put a huge blackeye on open carry in maine. So much so, that Im fairly certain his actions alone is what sparked the meeting police will have about stopping open carry.
    If you have a right, but exercising that right causes people to take that right away, then did you really have the right to do it at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    The thread I started about this "incident" got locked because, even though I specifically said I was focusing on the police response to an OC'er, the person happened to be carrying a long gun and I apparently violated the rules.

    So, watch what you say I guess. This will probably get locked for even mentioning it.
    I sent Grapeshot a PM inviting him to lock my post if he felt it was out of line when I posted. I suspect he's enjoying the debate on my comment as I am! Stay on topic and respect other users and enjoy.

    http://www.kjonline.com/news/policew...013-01-04.html
    Last edited by jonjon_jon; 01-05-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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    Is GS Jeff Weinstein? Otherwise I have no idea what he said that you agreed with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    If you have a right, but exercising that right causes people to take that right away, then did you really have the right to do it at all?
    Nothing and nobody can eliminate a "right." You have a right to life, liberty and property. This includes having the tools with which to defend those rights. If someone can actually "take that right away," it was never a right, but a privilege.

    Our natural and imperishable right is to LIFE and LIBERTY, not just to posession of guns. The natural and inherent right to life and self defense predates the "constitution" by as long as human beings have existed. Don't get hung up on "gun rights."
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    If you have a right, but exercising that right causes people to take that right away, then did you really have the right to do it at all?
    Yes, but you're not exercising them smartly. I'm not a fan of OC'ing long guns simply because the general public barely seems to be able to handle handguns. An AR is just adding shock value to open carrying, which is counter productive. That being said, I respect a persons right to carry whatever they like (legally).


    Quote Originally Posted by jonjon_jon View Post
    I sent Grapeshot a PM inviting him to lock my post if he felt it was out of line when I posted. I suspect he's enjoying the debate on my comment as I am! Stay on topic and respect other users and enjoy.

    http://www.kjonline.com/news/policew...013-01-04.html

    Are you implying that I'm not doing either of those things? Just curious.

    I posted a link to that article in the Maine forum. Learned that it's not the first time they've met for this reason, but they now have some ammunition for wanting tougher laws.
    Once more into the fray.
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    Live and die on this day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    Nothing and nobody can eliminate a "right." You have a right to life, liberty and property. This includes having the tools with which to defend those rights. If someone can actually "take that right away," it was never a right, but a privilege.

    Our natural and imperishable right is to LIFE and LIBERTY, not just to posession of guns. The natural and inherent right to life and self defense predates the "constitution" by as long as human beings have existed. Don't get hung up on "gun rights."
    Then let's just admit we have no rights. Semantics, ugh.

    All the above can be taken away regardless of your right to them. If they were taken then your rights meant squat anyway.

    Some rights are privileges actually, like the right to vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    If you have a right, but exercising that right causes people to take that right away, then did you really have the right to do it at all?
    Timing is everything. Walking around with an AR on your back, right after 20 kids get blasted by one is not smart. Rights or not, the timing was terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
    Timing is everything. Walking around with an AR on your back, right after 20 kids get blasted by one is not smart. Rights or not, the timing was terrible.
    So, what are you going to do about it? Huh? C'mon. Lets hear it?

    The fact of the matter is nobody else can stop them. They're free men and women. That's the point--they can do what they want; and (big surprise here)--some of them will actually do it.

    So, how you gonna stop them? Or, do you plan on lending indirect support to anti-gunners by saying he shouldn't do it, and shouldn't have done it?

    You can't stop them. If all you did was vigorously defend his right to do it while not bellyaching about his doing it, you'd end up in the same place. Complaining that he shouldn't have done it only plays into the hands of the anti-gunners. Nevermind, the damned police making a play for chipping away at the Fourth Amendment in this particular case.

    So, quit it already. Rights are rights are rights are rights. As already mentioned, if he's not supposed to do it after a tragedy because government might infringe the right, then it wasn't really a right after all.



    I am reminded we've been all through this before. Not just with VA Tech, but with OC in general. How many times in our early years did we hear advice not to rock the boat by OCing? From so-called pro-gun people who preferred CC and not stirring people up, and not scaring people, and not scaring kids and not....blah, blah, blah.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-05-2013 at 06:55 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
    Timing is everything. Walking around with an AR on your back, right after 20 kids get blasted by one is not smart. Rights or not, the timing was terrible.
    Considering that 12000 people are murdered with firearms yearly, that averages 33 people per day murdered. When is the "proper timing" to exercise a right? I'd say that right after a tragedy is the perfect time to exercise your right to carry in whatever form because that's the most likely time to encounter a copycat murderer.

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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Considering that 12000 people are murdered with firearms yearly, that averages 33 people per day murdered. When is the "proper timing" to exercise a right? I'd say that right after a tragedy is the perfect time to exercise your right to carry in whatever form because that's the most likely time to encounter a copycat murderer.
    So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
    Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    [QUOTE=MainelyGlock;1875686]Yes, but you're not exercising them smartly. I'm not a fan of OC'ing long guns simply because the general public barely seems to be able to handle handguns. An AR is just adding shock value to open carrying, which is counter productive. That being said, I respect a persons right to carry whatever they like (legally).



    There are MANY people who think open carrying a handgun is not "exercising them smartly" and think you should always conceal it. Reference the 12 times I've been detained by police while OCing a handgun. Reference the MANY ballistics reports showing that a handgun is not a very effective self defense tool due to it's lack of power. Reference the reports by just about all defensive firearms instructors that universally agree that ANY long gun is better than ANY pistol in a gunfight. The ONLY reason why we carry pistols instead of long guns is due to the size and weight restrictions we place on ourselves for our chosen defensive tool. If someone is more concerned about their protection, and less concerned about size and weight, then the best defensive tool is a long gun, and the best defensive long gun in most situations is a high capacity semi automatic intermediate caliber rifle.

    To be completely honest, when I carry a firearm, I don't choose what I carry based on whether I think the general public will accept me. The general public accepting me is not my concern. Carrying a firearm isn't about being liked. If you're carrying purely for political reasons, then you need to rethink whether you should be carrying at all. I carry for my defense. I choose open carry because my research has led me to believe that open carry is better than concealed carry for executing the task of defense. The only reason I don't carry a rifle is because it's too damn big and heavy, and because my choice to be a member of this forum leads me to want to follow this forum's rules.

    Now, let's discuss how someone OCing an AR might affect how the public views us as handgun carriers. I would argue that it might make them LESS upset with handgun carry. ie. "well at least he's not carrying a big scary assault rifle like that crazy guy I saw last week." It's the same principle that the progressive's use against us. They propose outlandish and far reaching legislation, then when we complain, they take a smaller incremental step instead, and we think we won, when in reality, we still lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
    Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

    data from 2009 but it's not very different year to year. 11,493 homicides by firearm. Generally there are about 30,000 firearm deaths per year. Generally about half are suicides. Generally about 500 are accidental. Generally about 12,000 are homicides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
    Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
    That gives me an idea.

    Lets say 12K are murdered, total. All deserved the right to defend themselves.

    Add in all the aggravated assaults that resulted in grave bodily injury.

    And, all the rapes.

    And, where legal to defend with lethal force, all the arsons.

    That adds up to a lota people who deserved an opportunity to defend themselves.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That gives me an idea.

    Lets say 12K are murdered, total. All deserved the right to defend themselves.

    Add in all the aggravated assaults that resulted in grave bodily injury.

    And, all the rapes.

    And, where legal to defend with lethal force, all the arsons.

    That adds up to a lota people who deserved an opportunity to defend themselves.
    From my link above 16,799 were murdered. That puts the US at rank 15 for murders per capita. Use that stat when people tell you that America is the most violent country.

    And yeah, definitely does add up to a lot of people who deserved the right to protect themselves. Also, if you could find stats for it, add in all the people that DID defend themselves with firearms that would have died if they didn't have a firearm.

    More data here from the UN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

    That's from 2012 and ranks the US at 4.8 homicides per 100,000 which puts us at rank 103 for intentional homicides per 100,000. Granted most of those ahead of us are 3rd world African and South American countries, or tiny countries with very small populations that could fluctuate greatly.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 01-06-2013 at 04:11 AM.

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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
    Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

    data from 2009 but it's not very different year to year. 11,493 homicides by firearm. Generally there are about 30,000 firearm deaths per year. Generally about half are suicides. Generally about 500 are accidental. Generally about 12,000 are homicides.
    Since we have been off topic for 6 posts, I wont feel bad about this post.

    As all Murders are homicides,,, not All homicides are murders,,, and my post questioned the number of Murders, not homicides.

    Of the 12,000 homicides,,,
    many were by police stopping bad guys,,, Birking and such.
    many were home invasion self defense,
    many were were rape self defense,
    many were assault and battery self defense,
    many were strong arm robery self defense,
    and how many other examples of justifiable homicides, by law abiding citizens could be included in this 12,000 homicides?

    This leaves actuall Murders..
    This brings me to a delicate splitting of the numbers,
    the difference between,,, how shall I say,,, regular, old fashioned, everyday Murders.
    and Drug driven, gangland, turfwar, Murder.
    I think gangs murder much more often than, regular,old fashioned,everyday Murder,
    only becuse the drug war has made their criminality sooo profitable!

    So to the share of the 12,000 homicides that are actully Murders, and that is still a Big number
    I would like to think of the gangland Murders as something else, something that can be
    in a differant catagory entirely,,, Assinations!
    Stop the war on drugs, take the insane profits away, remove the motivation for gangland Assinations,
    reduce the number of Murders by more than half,
    improve community safety, security, and health.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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