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Thread: Va Beach sends you to VAPD to apply for CHP....Legal?

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Va Beach sends you to VAPD to apply for CHP....Legal?

    Today I was at the VB circuit court clerks office and I noticed several postings that stated along the lines of CHP applications must be submitted at Building #11 which is the VBPD.

    also on their website

    Where To File:
    The application review process begins with filing the completed application with the Virginia Beach Police Department, 2509 Princess Anne Road, Support Division - Records Unit, Building 11 at the Virginia Beach Municipal Center.


    Law excerpts: Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides,....... The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths......

    As I understand it, VB doesn't fingerprint but the PD does and initial review of the application. Why doesn't the Clerk just take the application like their supposed to and route it through the channels they need to?

    It may be whining over nothing, but if police and the commonwealth can hold all of us to such strict adherence to the law, then why shouldn't they be?

    any thoughts or input?
    Last edited by ryan7068; 01-04-2013 at 07:37 PM.
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    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    As I understand it, VB doesn't fingerprint but the PD does and initial review of the application. Why doesn't the Clerk just take the application like their supposed to and route it through the channels they need to?
    I think you may be pressing just to complicate things furthermore. I was under the impression that I must go to the clerk of courts to apply for the license and have my $50 ready. So I park in the only open parking spot at the courthouse, walk a mile to the doors where a little sign reads, "Absolutely No Cell Phones, $200 Fine". So about face, mile back to my hoopT to save that $200, proceeded back into the courthouse, through the metal detectors and eyeballing overweight law-dawgs unfit for any real duty, up the stairs through the double doors into the clerk of courts office where a sign was posted on the door, "APPLY AT VBPD FOR ALL CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS" . Same route back out and an hour later, $50 in my pocket and a little perturbed, I headed over to the headquarters, walked in filled out the form, showed my ID, proof of residence, signed the form and viola! I was on my way in less than 10 minutes. They routed it through the proper channels because I got my CHP something like 3 1/2 weeks later in the mail. They have 45 days to get it to you or refuse to grant it with proper cause.

    Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Let's keep it simple.
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    Va Beach Circuit court needs to follow the letter of the law like they expect everyone else to. The problem in many jurisdictions is that when they are not held accountable they do what they damn well please. Next thing you know they are making up new regulations. If Va Beach says you are to go to the police range and pay $100 dollars and qualify a certain score how would you feel about that? As long as you qualified and got your permit "don't fix it if it ain't broke" because everything went smooth?


    By the way fingerprinting is no longer required under state law for initial permits, period.
    Last edited by mobeewan; 01-04-2013 at 08:23 PM.

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    Va Beach Circuit court needs to follow the letter of the law like they expect everyone else to. The problem in many jurisdictions is that when they are not held accountable they do what they damn well please. Next thing you know they are making up new regulations. If Va Beach says you are to go to the police range and pay $100 dollars and qualify a certain score how would you feel about that? As long as you qualified and got your permit "don't fix it if it ain't broke" because everything went smooth?


    By the way fingerprinting is no longer required under state law for initial permits, period.

    That was my thoughts!!.....good call on the fingerprints.....totally forgot!
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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Appears extra-legal if not illegal. See the thread about our brother in Roanoke.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hlight=roanoke
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    I think you may be pressing just to complicate things furthermore. I was under the impression that I must go to the clerk of courts to apply for the license and have my $50 ready. So I park in the only open parking spot at the courthouse, walk a mile to the doors where a little sign reads, "Absolutely No Cell Phones, $200 Fine". So about face, mile back to my hoopT to save that $200, proceeded back into the courthouse, through the metal detectors and eyeballing overweight law-dawgs unfit for any real duty, up the stairs through the double doors into the clerk of courts office where a sign was posted on the door, "APPLY AT VBPD FOR ALL CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS" . Same route back out and an hour later, $50 in my pocket and a little perturbed, I headed over to the headquarters, walked in filled out the form, showed my ID, proof of residence, signed the form and viola! I was on my way in less than 10 minutes. They routed it through the proper channels because I got my CHP something like 3 1/2 weeks later in the mail. They have 45 days to get it to you or refuse to grant it with proper cause.

    Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Let's keep it simple.
    What part of "in writing to the clerk of the circuit court" do you think sits at the Virginia Beach Police Department?

    You were not "under the impression", you were directed by the law to go to the clerk's office.

    It is broke. And it needs to be fixed.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    Va Beach Circuit court needs to follow the letter of the law like they expect everyone else to. The problem in many jurisdictions is that when they are not held accountable they do what they damn well please. Next thing you know they are making up new regulations. If Va Beach says you are to go to the police range and pay $100 dollars and qualify a certain score how would you feel about that? As long as you qualified and got your permit "don't fix it if it ain't broke" because everything went smooth?


    By the way fingerprinting is no longer required under state law for initial permits, period.
    One small correction: Fingerprinting is no longer allowed under state law for initial permits!

    Ok, techincally, if we want to be exact... fingerprinting used to be allowed to be required, but now it is not. I don't suppose anyone would deny your permit if you handed them a fingerprint card with the application, but who would do that?



    TFred

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    What part of "in writing to the clerk of the circuit court" do you think sits at the Virginia Beach Police Department?

    You were not "under the impression", you were directed by the law to go to the clerk's office.

    It is broke. And it needs to be fixed.

    TFred
    +1 I'm getting my CHP later this year, and I live in VA Beach.. I'll be darned if I go to VBPD to get my permit. I'm going to go to the Clerk's office, as stated in the Code. If they don't like it, perhaps another lawsuit like the one in Roanoke will straighten them out.
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    I have been in both buildings on a few different occasions; jury duty, marriage license, identity theft report, etc, and to file for CHP. On a normal day you can park in the 15 min parking in front of the PD building and be done with your CHP and on your way before you can get through the metal detector in the court building (even using the jury parking lot).

    It is confusing/misleading but I would much rather see them change the name/title of the building, then have to go to the court building.

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    I have submitted the following letter to the duty judge at VB court as well as CC'd VCDL Pres.....I certainly understand possible inconvenience however slight. I also understand that any slack on our part is too much. I will follow up and we shall see what becomes of this. BTW I used Tosta's letter to the court as a form guide. Why try and rewrite the well written?!



    To Whom it may concern,

    On Friday, January 4, 2013, I went to the Virginia Beach Circuit Court Clerks office for a work related matter. I was surprised to see multiple posted signs indicating that those individuals wishing to submit an application for a Concealed Handgun Permit must do so at "Building #11 VBPD." While I certainly understand it may seem to some as a minor deviation from state law, it is a deviation none the less. I also received verification that this is your required process through a private party that recently applied for said permit.

    Virginia Code 18.2-308(D) clearly states "Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun."

    By demanding applicants submit their application in any location other than the Circuit Court Clerk, you are in direct violation of state law. I insist that you immediately change your unlawful policy and allow applicants to resume submissions of applications at the Circuit Court Clerks office.

    I would certainly appreciate an acknowledgement of your understanding of this letter and possibly an indication of the corrective action that will be taken. This situation will be monitored by many and followed up on through visits and phone calls to ensure a corrective action has in fact been taken. Thank you for you attention.


    Respectfully
    Last edited by ryan7068; 01-04-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    One small correction: Fingerprinting is no longer allowed under state law for initial permits!

    Ok, techincally, if we want to be exact... fingerprinting used to be allowed to be required, but now it is not. I don't suppose anyone would deny your permit if you handed them a fingerprint card with the application, but who would do that?



    TFred
    Be careful here. Skid offered a finger over in Surry, and had all ten of them printed, yet no one was able to identify the offered finger from the prints.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 01-05-2013 at 12:24 AM.
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    I think you may be pressing just to complicate things furthermore. I was under the impression that I must go to the clerk of courts to apply for the license and have my $50 ready. So I park in the only open parking spot at the courthouse, walk a mile to the doors where a little sign reads, "Absolutely No Cell Phones, $200 Fine". So about face, mile back to my hoopT to save that $200, proceeded back into the courthouse, through the metal detectors and eyeballing overweight law-dawgs unfit for any real duty, up the stairs through the double doors into the clerk of courts office where a sign was posted on the door, "APPLY AT VBPD FOR ALL CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS" . Same route back out and an hour later, $50 in my pocket and a little perturbed, I headed over to the headquarters, walked in filled out the form, showed my ID, proof of residence, signed the form and viola! I was on my way in less than 10 minutes. They routed it through the proper channels because I got my CHP something like 3 1/2 weeks later in the mail. They have 45 days to get it to you or refuse to grant it with proper cause.

    Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Let's keep it simple.
    If you had mailed your notarized application and fee to the clerk's office, as provided by statute, you would indeed have kept it simple.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    If you had mailed your notarized application and fee to the clerk's office, as provided by statute, you would indeed have kept it simple.
    Again, and again until everyone is blue in the face from hearing/reading about it -

    The LAW (well, actually The Code of Virginia of 1979, as amended) spells out in infinite and precise detail where the application for a CHP is to be tendered. Any deviation from that is a violation of, or at least contempt of/for, the law. That a Clerk of the Circuit Court would brazenly show contempt for/of the law is unacceptable. Among their many duties is the duty to guide citizens through the proper and appropriate use of the Court. Erecting internal procedures that circumvent the written law because they create a "convenience" for the Clerk and/or the citizen can only serve to nullify the legal act(s) carried out under that "convenience". (That someone has not yet taken the steps to cause that to happen is not material. An improper filing is an improper filing and is open to challenge at any time. Should it be shown to have been improperly filed the only result allowed by law and Rules of the Court is the nullification of the filing and all subsequent actions taken as a result of the filing. That forces a do-over de novo.)

    If the Clerk can create and get away with extra-legal procedures, what's to stop the Registrar of Voters, or the Zoning Board, or the Health Department, or any other agency, from doing the same? Seriously, how would you like to find out you are technically ineligible to vote, or that you must tear down the addition you built onto your house, or that you do not legally exist because your birth certificate is invalid? All it takes is one obsessive-compulsive individual with time on their hands and the desire to take challenges to any of these matters as far as they can.

    Instead, let's insist that the Clerk do their job as it is spelled out in the law.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Again, and again until everyone is blue in the face from hearing/reading about it -

    The LAW (well, actually The Code of Virginia of 1979, as amended) spells out in infinite and precise detail where the application for a CHP is to be tendered. Any deviation from that is a violation of, or at least contempt of/for, the law. That a Clerk of the Circuit Court would brazenly show contempt for/of the law is unacceptable. Among their many duties is the duty to guide citizens through the proper and appropriate use of the Court. Erecting internal procedures that circumvent the written law because they create a "convenience" for the Clerk and/or the citizen can only serve to nullify the legal act(s) carried out under that "convenience". (That someone has not yet taken the steps to cause that to happen is not material. An improper filing is an improper filing and is open to challenge at any time. Should it be shown to have been improperly filed the only result allowed by law and Rules of the Court is the nullification of the filing and all subsequent actions taken as a result of the filing. That forces a do-over de novo.)

    If the Clerk can create and get away with extra-legal procedures, what's to stop the Registrar of Voters, or the Zoning Board, or the Health Department, or any other agency, from doing the same? Seriously, how would you like to find out you are technically ineligible to vote, or that you must tear down the addition you built onto your house, or that you do not legally exist because your birth certificate is invalid? All it takes is one obsessive-compulsive individual with time on their hands and the desire to take challenges to any of these matters as far as they can.

    Instead, let's insist that the Clerk do their job as it is spelled out in the law.

    stay safe.
    An application submitted by mail would also have tested the clerk's office for compliance.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    If you had mailed your notarized application and fee to the clerk's office, as provided by statute, you would indeed have kept it simple.
    I see how us giving them an inch outside of the law for convenience could ultimately lead to them thinking they can bend the law wherever they deem exceptions for convenience. I had every intention of getting it done at the clerk of courts but was redirected. I didn't let that stop me from getting the CHP though.

    I wholeheartedly agree that they need to follow the laws of the land and be held accountable to the standards we are expected to follow and punished for breaking.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    I see how us giving them an inch outside of the law for convenience could ultimately lead to them thinking they can bend the law wherever they deem exceptions for convenience. I had every intention of getting it done at the clerk of courts but was redirected. I didn't let that stop me from getting the CHP though.

    I wholeheartedly agree that they need to follow the laws of the land and be held accountable to the standards we are expected to follow and punished for breaking.

    "GIVE EM HELL HARRY!"
    Yes, we certainly hope for compliance. But be careful what you wish for. Some clerk somewhere who feels irritated because he/she was called for not following the CHP application rules to the letter too many times may just cheerily comply with the next FIOA request from some news outlet for his/her list of CHP holders. Or worse, call them to let them know an updated list is now available.

    A double-edged sword can slice deeply on the backswing.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Yes, we certainly hope for compliance. But be careful what you wish for. Some clerk somewhere who feels irritated because he/she was called for not following the CHP application rules to the letter too many times may just cheerily comply with the next FIOA request from some news outlet for his/her list of CHP holders. Or worse, call them to let them know an updated list is now available.

    A double-edged sword can slice deeply on the backswing.
    I don't think you know how FOIA of CHP records works in Virginia. There is no "list" for anybody to request from the Clerks, and a law was recently passed that keeps them from accessing the list that the State Police do have. At best the press can go to the courthouse and ask to see the CHPs issued between x and y dates. They can look at each one individually, but are not going to get a bunch of them copied until/unless they then ask specifically for copies by name. And then the Clerk has to redact certain information before giving it to them. So far, it has been too much inconvenience for the Fourth Estate.

    And if it were possible to demonstrate that a Clerk was doing what you suggest, a nicely worded complaint to the Chief Judge and the Clerek of the Virginia Supreme Court ought to either rectify the situation or be reason for electing a new Clerk. There are sufficient folks (it only takes one) in Virginia's cities/counties to deal with any Clerk who is not doing things "according to Hoyle". Sometimes the biggest problem is getting them up off their 4th point of contact to actually do that which needs to be done. All too often the cray is heard that "VCDL will take care of that". Well, VCDL relies on it's members to do most of the scutt work.

    So, the ball is back to the OP - regardless if they already got their CHP or not. If you are not going to do somethjing about it besides whining, then you have no leg to stand on for any whining.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I don't think you know how FOIA of CHP records works in Virginia. There is no "list" for anybody to request from the Clerks, and a law was recently passed that keeps them from accessing the list that the State Police do have. At best the press can go to the courthouse and ask to see the CHPs issued between x and y dates. They can look at each one individually, but are not going to get a bunch of them copied until/unless they then ask specifically for copies by name. And then the Clerk has to redact certain information before giving it to them.
    CHP records are court records, open to inspection as are almost all court records (FOIA does not apply); also, 18.2-308 provides that "The clerk of court ***may*** withhold from public disclosure the social security number contained in a permit application in response to a request to inspect or copy any such permit application, except that such social security number shall not be withheld from any law-enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    An application submitted by mail would also have tested the clerk's office for compliance.
    I agree completely - this is the way to force the Clerk to follow the law. If the Clerk refuses to perform his ministerial duty on a mailed in application, then you have 3 causes of action for your Petition for a Writ of Mandamus from the Circuit Court: 1. Refused to accept the application; 2. refused to issue de facto permit; 3. refused to accept the applicationby mail.

    You want to create the worst facts for the Clerk, should the Clerk decide to ignore or mail back your application.

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    Answer is "no". What they're doing is ignoring the statute that says you've got the right to file anything subject to the authority of a judge to rule on the propriety of your filing. It has the effect of not giving you a filing date to measure off the forty-five days. An application for a CHP is a new case file, just as if you were suing someone, and the clerk can't delegate that Constitutional duty to the PD. I think that this is a policy attempting to regulate the possession of firearms in violation of 15.2-915. In the petition for writ of mandamus demand an award of attorneys' fees pursuant to that statute.
    Last edited by user; 01-05-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Mr. *****

    I have forwarded your email to my superior, Mike Davy, for his attention. He is the Circuit Court Administrator.

    Thank you,
    Ruth
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Wow, quite a row over permitting on an OPEN CARRY forum.

    Building 11 is the public safety/precinct office. The police don't issue the permit, just helping in processing it.

    I'm not sure how this could be construed as an inconvenience. If anything, it keeps you from having to go through the SECURE AREA of the courthouse (read: be disarmed).
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  23. #23
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Wow, quite a row over permitting on an OPEN CARRY forum.

    Building 11 is the public safety/precinct office. The police don't issue the permit, just helping in processing it.

    I'm not sure how this could be construed as an inconvenience. If anything, it keeps you from having to go through the SECURE AREA of the courthouse (read: be disarmed).
    So does mailing the application.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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  24. #24
    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Wow, quite a row over permitting on an OPEN CARRY forum.

    Building 11 is the public safety/precinct office. The police don't issue the permit, just helping in processing it.

    I'm not sure how this could be construed as an inconvenience. If anything, it keeps you from having to go through the SECURE AREA of the courthouse (read: be disarmed).
    Good call! I'll stop following up and not post anymore about it.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

  25. #25
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Va Beach sends you to VAPD to apply for CHP....Legal?

    JMHO, but I don't see this thread as any different from the one about Roanoke. I think that we shouldn't exclude CC discussion from the forum on the simple basis that it is not OC-related. As friends here, we have built a support network to help with all carry related issues we have. While I understand that some of us do not agree with P4P, unfortunately we do not live in a constitutional carry state such as Arizona. Until such time that we can establish that here, we all need to realize that for some people, CC is a necessity, perhaps due to clothing choices or occupational reason.

    Just my two cents.
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