I hate being made a fool, I feel so betrayed and mad.

nonameisgood said:

If you had all voted Libertarian, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And don't for one minute think that Romney, a Massachusetts liberal, would not be cowtowing to the anti-gunners right now. The last thing we need is a president who gets along with Congress well enough to actually get something through Congress.

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If we few, and everybody we know had voted Libertarian, we'd be having exactly the same discussion. The Libertarian vote was <1% of the total vote. That's not to say that it's a bad idea, just that it's impractical at this point in time. Our votes may have brought it up to a full 1%. And, what we need is a Congress with the cojones to stand up to Barry the Bankrupter. Perhaps we can take care of that in the mid-terms. Pax...

Gil223 said:

If we few, and everybody we know had voted Libertarian, we'd be having exactly the same discussion. The Libertarian vote was <1% of the total vote. That's not to say that it's a bad idea, just that it's impractical at this point in time. Our votes may have brought it up to a full 1%. And, what we need is a Congress with the cojones to stand up to Barry the Bankrupter. Perhaps we can take care of that in the mid-terms. Pax...

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Yet.....there is as change a coming, if the the one party masquerading as two parties don't outlaw that change.. :lol:

I think congress is the best place for that change to start though, and easier to get libertarian minded folks locally into that office.

Actually, I do blame those who voted Libertarian and those who stayed home.

They gave us a solidly Democrat Senate, and a president who thinks he is no longer answerable to the people (his word: "flexible"). Thanks a lot.

Were the election to have gone the other way, we would no doubt be having the same discussion of bans coming from the politicians, but I would be as confident that we would not get one as I am now confident that we will.

Again, thanks a lot.


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davidmcbeth said:

File a small claims case asking for the money back ... I'm sure it will at least make the news.

The democrats are now either fascists and/or communists and the republicans are now democrats...when comparing parties today v. 20 years ago. IMO


Speaking of parties-on-the-whole. Individuals may vary but on the whole, I think that this is accurate.

People scream about the Tea Party but their platform is similar to that of the GOP in 1990...now the GOP does not like them and the democrats hate them.

I switched years ago to the Libertarian party. I don't agree with everything of the party platform but I never did with any party.

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+1 It takes special abilities to continue to believe the lies of the Democans and Republicrats.

eye95 said:

Actually, I do blame those who voted Libertarian and those who stayed home.

They gave us a solidly Democrat Senate, and a president who thinks he is no longer answerable to the people (his word: "flexible"). Thanks a lot.

Were the election to have gone the other way, we would no doubt be having the same discussion of bans coming from the politicians, but I would be as confident that we would not get one as I am now confident that we will.

Again, thanks a lot.


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So, those who cast a vote for Liberty somehow gave you more of the same establishment control?

I'd say that the 99% who are content with the way things are were responsible for the continuance of the duopoly stranglehold on our entire political process.

I knew that Liberty would not win the popularity game as orchestrated, but I still just couldn't stomach making her sit at home as if she was unfit to show up and be recognized.

You're welcome, by the way, for what you and many others would consider a "throw away" vote. My only regret is that I was vastly outnumbered.

Those numbers paint a grim picture of the independence of our populace - they show that we the people got exactly what we wholeheartedly demanded.

Yes. By wasting votes, or not voting, they gave us the candidates who least supported Liberty.

I believe that that was many of their secret intent. By crashing Liberty totally, they hope to awaken some kind of revolution that will restore Liberty. But that is folly. Almost all revolutions in history resulted in less Liberty, not more. The American Revolution was an anomaly. However, it was not so much a revolution as a throwing off of outside usurpers.

No, our last best hope for Liberty died with the reelection of Obama with a solid Senate behind him. I do believe the ultimate result will be a revolution. Successful or not, it will increase oppression, not Liberty.

Again, thanks a lot.


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eye95 said:

Yes. By wasting votes, or not voting, they gave us the candidates who least supported Liberty.

I believe that that was many of their secret intent. By crashing Liberty totally, they hope to awaken some kind of revolution that will restore Liberty. But that is folly. Almost all revolutions in history resulted in less Liberty, not more. The American Revolution was an anomaly. However, it was not so much a revolution as a throwing off of outside usurpers.

No, our last best hope for Liberty died with the reelection of Obama with a solid Senate behind him. I do believe the ultimate result will be a revolution. Successful or not, it will increase oppression, not Liberty.

Again, thanks a lot.


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I suppose if one really needs to blame even the smallest fraction of other "losers" in the last political contest to feel better about wasting their own vote on a different (2nd place) loser, I won't waste my breath ridiculing that need any further than this post.

It is a small consolation to me that others in this thread have at least acknowledge having learned a lesson from their vote and hopefully gained a fresh perspective on the current system and how easily it steers most of the population to fall in line with false promises and clever rhetoric (from both sides of the same coin.)

My hopes for Liberty did not die with the last election, only my hopes of a political solution. Revolution is required... in the hearts and minds of Americans.
Wars and battles generally only accompany revolutions of spirit and thought when force is initiated to quash them, most typically by those who sense their monopoly of power and control being challenged by "dangerous" or "revolutionary" sentiment and thinking.

I'll pass on the prospects of conflict or war, if they may be avoided, but Revolution? Yes, please, the sooner the better.

ATM said:

I suppose if one really needs to blame even the smallest fraction of other "losers" in the last political contest to feel better about wasting their own vote on a different (2nd place) loser, I won't waste my breath ridiculing that need any further than this post.

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Oh, please don't revive that argument again. We went endless pages of posts in the run-up to the election. The must-vote-for-major-party crowd isn't going to recognize your rights or mine to withhold our consent or vote our conscience, etc. There is no point in re-arguing it. They won't budge.

eye95 said:

Yes. By wasting votes, or not voting, they gave us the candidates who least supported Liberty.

I believe that that was many of their secret intent. By crashing Liberty totally, they hope to awaken some kind of revolution that will restore Liberty. But that is folly. Almost all revolutions in history resulted in less Liberty, not more. The American Revolution was an anomaly. However, it was not so much a revolution as a throwing off of outside usurpers.

No, our last best hope for Liberty died with the reelection of Obama with a solid Senate behind him. I do believe the ultimate result will be a revolution. Successful or not, it will increase oppression, not Liberty.

Again, thanks a lot.


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Fallacy reasoning, first by lumping libertarian vote in with non vote, not a state in the union would that have changed the election in favor toward the fascist Romney.

Second inferring those who didn't vote would have voted for your party. Yes I know you didn't say that but it appears to be how you are thinking. And if that is not so, why didn't those didn't vote get off their ass and vote for your party? Instead of blaming them ask what your party didn't do or are doing that disenfranchises them?

Also resting your hopes on Obama not getting elected, give me a break they gave us a choice of Stalin and Hitler, I refused to give my illusion of consent to either one.

The lack of people voting is good in my opinion, it shows how rigged system it is.

You can be mad all you want and blame others but your party did everything it could to thwart the one GOP politician that could have moved the party and the presidency back toward more constitutional boundaries.

sudden valley gunner said:

Fallacy reasoning, first by lumping libertarian vote in with non vote, not a state in the union would that have changed the election in favor toward the fascist Romney.

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Please, please, please don't open that argument again. Realize Eye is just being Eye.

sudden valley gunner said:

...Second inferring those who didn't vote would have voted for your party.

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Inference ("inferring") is an activity of the listener or reader (I believe you were looking for ", implying" - an action of the speaker or writer). Pax...

Libertarian votes, non-votes, and votes for Mickey Mouse are, of course, not the same thing. What they are is effectively the same. They are were not votes for someone who had a chance of beating Obama (or a Democrat senator). Therefore, those votes were not votes against the impending gun-grab. Thanks a lot.

I blame anyone who did not vote for Romney or Republican senatorial candidates for the current fix. Again, thanks a lot.


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It does not matter which of the two is in office now, because neither respects our rights. It was a republican president and House that passed the USA Patriot Act, probably the largest affront to our liberty in 50 years. FISA also originated under republican control.

We have lost control of our government, which now just runs on it's own authority, rather than deriving it from the People.

Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it provides you comfort.


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Z1P2 said:

<snip> So I'm here to say to any of you that had a jackass like me try to tell you this wouldn't happen, (1) I apologize. I hope you can (2) forgive me and others like me and understand that it's (3) not entirely our fault, for we were duped by these lying pack of serpents in Washington. (4) Furthermore, I will try to make amends by being more vigilant in whom I support and don't support in the mid-terms and future elections.

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(1) Not accepted.
(2) Forgive? I'll consider your request.....nope, not gunna do it.
(3) Really? You being that gullible reenforces my # 1 and #2.
(4) Too late. Though, if things get significantly better I may soften on #2.

You and those like you had your chance to vote against anti-liberty politicians and you blew it. You voted against your own self interests. Your vote is a personal choice and there is no way to verify that you will abide by your pledge to be more vigilant. I and others did not have your support before I will not count on it in the future. I am a forgiving person but there is no requirement for when I must forgive.

sudden valley gunner said:

<snip> Instead of blaming them ask what your party didn't do or are doing that disenfranchises them? <snip> The lack of people voting is good in my opinion, it shows how rigged system it is. <snip>

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Your premise relies upon the implication that the vast majority of those who did not vote, did not vote because they were/are somehow disenfranchised. I contend that voting for them is not important, what is important to them is their access to Honey Boo Boo and Kim K. not being infringed upon by the "state.". The right to not vote is just as important as the right to vote.

I submit that it is a good thing that the Honey Boo Boo/ Kim K. crowd did not vote. If they did vote it likely would have been for "Stalin" and not "Hitler."

Stalin.....Hitler......sheese.:banghead:

Citizen said:

Please, please, please don't open that argument again. Realize Eye is just being Eye.

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I don't do it for his benefit.....:lol:, I am supposed to be on his ignore list.

Gil223 said:

Inference ("inferring") is an activity of the listener or reader (I believe you were looking for ", implying" - an action of the speaker or writer). Pax...

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Correct sir, one of these days I will get that right. I like getting constructive criticisms, my writing has improved so much by simply being on OCDO.

OC for ME said:

Your premise relies upon the implication that the vast majority of those who did not vote, did not vote because they were/are somehow disenfranchised. I contend that voting for them is not important, what is important to them is their access to Honey Boo Boo and Kim K. not being infringed upon by the "state.". The right to not vote is just as important as the right to vote.

I submit that it is a good thing that the Honey Boo Boo/ Kim K. crowd did not vote. If they did vote it likely would have been for "Stalin" and not "Hitler."

Stalin.....Hitler......sheese.:banghead:

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Did not mean to imply all who didn't vote are disenfranchised, only to the inference of Eye that his party would have won because of the specific group of people out of those who didn't vote would have voted for his party, instead of pointing the blame at non voters look at his own party.

I absolutely agree the right to vote is just as important. The majority of people I meet who don't vote though as myself in the past, is that they are simply disgusted with the whole thing so much so that Honey Boo Boo and Kim Kardashian are more important to them than Romney or Obama.

Yes Stalin a socialist/communist Hitler a socialist/fascist.

I recommend two books on this subject Milton Mayer They Thought They Were Free and Ludwig VonMises Omnipotent Government. History is repeating itself. Some of what I say is "over the top" but it is done on purpose to get people to think about what is happening and the similarities to recent past history.

eye95 said:

Actually, I do blame those who voted Libertarian and those who stayed home.

They gave us a solidly Democrat Senate, and a president who thinks he is no longer answerable to the people (his word: "flexible"). Thanks a lot.

Were the election to have gone the other way, we would no doubt be having the same discussion of bans coming from the politicians, but I would be as confident that we would not get one as I am now confident that we will.

Again, thanks a lot.


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<o>

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Realize if Romney had won an AWB would be a sure thing. A house divided has a hard(er) time passing legislation.

Z1P2 said:

Every once in a while I make a monumental blunder and become a little too trusting and gullible. So was the case when I fell for the BULL$HIT from the DNC about how they weren't going to go after guns and that the NRA was crazy for saying they would when they hadn't in the first term. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. I repeated it to family and friends and now I look like a total jackass! Worse yet, I voted for those lying bastards, and even donated to their campaign. I want my money back! I have half a mind to call up their offices and demand my money back.

So I'm here to say to any of you that had a jackass like me try to tell you this wouldn't happen, I apologize. I hope you can forgive me and others like me and understand that it's not entirely our fault, for we were duped by these lying pack of serpents in Washington. Furthermore, I will try to make amends by being more vigilant in whom I support and don't support in the mid-terms and future elections.

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It's all good, Daryl lives in the new Red Dawn.

sudden valley gunner said:

<snip> Did not mean to imply all who didn't vote are disenfranchised, only to the inference of Eye that his party would have won because of the specific group of people out of those who didn't vote would have voted for his party, instead of pointing the blame at non voters look at his own party.

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Thank you for the clarification. +1 to you Sir.

sudden valley gunner said:

I absolutely agree the right to vote is just as important. The majority of people I meet who don't vote though as myself in the past, is that they are simply disgusted with the whole thing so much so that Honey Boo Boo and Kim Kardashian are more important to them than Romney or Obama.

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This is the fundamental issue within our society today. Allowing oneself to become "disgusted" into inaction. The ole saw applies....."If you did not vote, you got no right to complain."

You can be disgusted AND vote, in the hopes that your vote leads to change, which in turn remedies what disgusts you. Inaction does not remedy what disgusts you.

sudden valley gunner said:

I recommend two books on this subject <snip>

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Thank you for recommending those two books. I have read some of Mayer and I find him to be anti-liberty. It is in the nature of man to pursue his own devices for good or for evil. A society of free men where the rule of law is held to have primacy over the rule of men is the very definition of liberty in my view. The citizenry has, via our Constitution, a process to counter.....er, address the "animality" that Mayer "saw" in man. Whether that animality manifests itself in the form of a tyrannical "state" or a evil man. Our republic is premised on each citizen abiding by the rule of law and "society", via the state, applying sanctions against those who would violate the rule of law.

I do not address the constitutionality of any specific law here, but speak to this subject from a philosophical perspective.

I have not read Von Mises but I will conduct research and get back to you.

OC for ME said:

Thank you for the clarification. +1 to you Sir.

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And to you sire for your rational and reasonable debate.

This is the fundamental issue within our society today. Allowing oneself to become "disgusted" into inaction. The ole saw applies....."If you did not vote, you got no right to complain."

You can be disgusted AND vote, in the hopes that your vote leads to change, which in turn remedies what disgusts you. Inaction does not remedy what disgusts you.

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I understand why people feel that way and simply don't agree, although because of expressions like yours I am partaking and am no longer politically apathetic. Last year I gave a stump speech, I have started working with local PAC groups.

Thank you for recommending those two books. I have read some of Mayer and I find him to be anti-liberty. It is in the nature of man to pursue his own devices for good or for evil. A society of free men where the rule of law is held to have primacy over the rule of men is the very definition of liberty in my view. The citizenry has, via our Constitution, a process to counter.....er, address the "animality" that Mayer "saw" in man. Whether that animality manifests itself in the form of a tyrannical "state" or a evil man. Our republic is premised on each citizen abiding by the rule of law and "society", via the state, applying sanctions against those who would violate the rule of law.

I do not address the constitutionality of any specific law here, but speak to this subject from a philosophical perspective.

I have not read Von Mises but I will conduct research and get back to you.

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I have heard that about Mayer and haven't read anything else, but this book intrigued me because of the issue dealing with Nazi Germany, it is basically interviews shortly after WWII, although I don't agree with many of his conclusions, the insight into what people were thinking was very educational. And it was free through my e-reader, I think Omnipotent Government was too.

I have a different perspective on what rule of law means in a free society, and that it primarily is meant to restrict by law the rule of society. E.G. our constitutions.