Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: St.Paris Police Cuff me

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Conover, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    86

    St.Paris Police Cuff me

    Copied from my post at ofcc

    My friend and I were heading to Subway in St.Paris for a bite and we noticed a St.Paris police officer sitting at the bank. Mindful of the situation I monitored my speed and stayed within the limits, when we were half way through town the officer decided to pull out and catch up, as we crossed the tracks going out of town he flipped his lights on and I pulled over.

    The officer came up to the window and of course the first thing I said is "Sir, I have my concealed carry and my weapon with me" He responds with "Ok, where is it?" I responded "It's under the seat". He then replies "Is it in a holster?" I said yes. He said keep your hands in plain sight and step outside the vehicle. At this time my friend had the chance to notify him of his CCW and weapon. The officer acknowledged and told him to remain seated with his hands up. As I got out of the car I kicked my holster and knocked my handgun out of it. This irritated the officer, he said you just lied to me, you said it was in the holster.. After this he says I am transporting the firearm illegally and I am being detained, He grabbed my left arm and handcuffed me against my jeep. I asked why I was being arrested and the officer said "You're not under arrest you are being detained" He proceeded to walk me over to his car and I informed him that I have hip problems and am physically incapable of getting into his car.

    He opened his door and I TRIED to get in.. Didn't work. My friend got out of the truck with his hands in plain sight and Informed the officer of the change in the law making it legal to transport the handgun on the floorboard. He continued to tell me to sit down, as I was sitting on the door jamb incapable of getting fully into the car. My friend said to him there was no reason to have me detained and the officer opted to keep me in cuffs and have me stand next to his car for it seemed like around 10 minutes.. in 30 degree weather

    The officer called in backup which happened to be the Champaign County Game Warden. Once the Game Warden arrived the officer freed my hands. He then told my Friend to get back in the truck. My friend responded with Sir, I'm going to stand here and observe" The officer said "No, get back in the truck". Three more times my friend said he was just going to observe. The officer then replied with "Get back in the truck or I will arrest you" My friend replied "You can't arrest me for observing" the officer walked over and grabbed his arm and said "Get back in the truck or you are under arrest" My buddy declined and the officer proceeded to put him in handcuffs and took him to the back of the car. In violation of orc 2921.31 "Obstruction of official business" He was simply standing next to the Jeep out of the way, about 15 feet from the officer.

    So after that, I was told to get back in my truck and wait there, I did so. After around 15 minutes the officer came back up to my window and said "Well, I'm not going to take him to jail, your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons". So he let my friend out of the cruiser and then walked back up and said bring my proof of insurance in to him within a couple days and proceeded to walk away. I said "Sir, My firearm?" He replied with "It's under your seat in the holster".
    The same thing he handcuffed me for...

    Not once during the stop did he even inform me as to why he pulled me over. I received no citation, no warning, nothing.. My friend had his firearm returned in the condition it was in when taken.

    Lawsuit?

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Whether or not you decide to file a lawsuit,
    right now you need to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to get the video from the car, any radio traffic, any report filed, etc. for both the original officer & the warden.

    If he didn't have RAS of a crime when he stopped you, then the stop was illegal & everything that came from it is illegal too... including the bogus "obstruction" charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    If you might file a lawsuit, its probably best to get a mod to delete the thread.

    If you've decided to just file a formal written complaint, then I want to ask whether you have omitted any details. For example, you kicked the gun out of the holster when alighting from the truck, but it was reholstered when you got back into the truck at the end of the stop. Did the cop reholster it? Did the cop run the serial number? Were you in a position to observe whether he or the back-up ran the serial number?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    No.

    When you get an LCCH in OH (soon to be a CHL), you buy into the game. The rules of the game include following the officer's instructions. You and your friend did not. Count yourself lucky that you are not facing charges.

    Now, if you had followed the officer's instructions, you might have a lawsuit if the officer had no good reason to stop you. However, he probably did--and just forgot about it in dealing with the firearm situation. Even if he didn't, you know he does. He'll say he did, and that will be that.

    My advice: Get out of the game. Instead of playing their game, by their silly rules, exercise your RKBA. OC.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Conover, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    86
    How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

    While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    St.Paris Police Cuff me

    You didn't get into the car when told to do so. Your friend got out of your car when told to stay in it.

    If you are going to CC with a LCCH, follow every instruction absolutely. You've bought into the game; play it. If you don't want to play the State's game, OC.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by xD.45Service View Post
    How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

    While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.
    If that is the case then this guy need to be removed from the force immediately. Respecting guns is a requirement, fearing guns will get someone killed.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quarryville, PA
    Posts
    3,543

    St.Paris Police Cuff me

    Quote Originally Posted by xD.45Service View Post
    How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

    While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.
    Was your friend armed? If so, I don't fault the officer telling him to get back in the car. Without knowing whether or not he had RAS, it is very difficult to judge his actions. Determining what his RAS was (if any) is pretty important.

    Also how are you able to sit in your car but not his?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by xD.45Service View Post
    How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

    While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.
    I wouldn't focus on that so much as I would focus on others who didn't follow the rules.

    First, cops have authority to make people get out of the car for cops' safety. If they can do that, they can certainly make people stay in the car. It seems to boil down to cops having authority to control the movements of people during a temporary seizure while they investigate. Its kinda hard to investigate when people just leave. Regarding making people get out or back in the car, see PA vs Mimms at the link below.

    I kinda suspect there are things you're not telling us. Whether deliberately hiding something to make yourself look better, or just didn't think them important to tell us, I couldn't say. But, so far the precise sequence doesn't quite add up. With that said, just using what you have given us, here is what I would think happened.

    Cop sees two guys in a truck ride by. Bored or thinking the situation ripe for a fishing expedition, he decides to stop you.

    He hears the magic word "gun" when you and your friend notify him. Aha! Now, he's got reason to start flexing his might a little bit more. And, the gun having slid out of the holster gives him an opportunity to feign indignation at being lied to.

    A little later, your friend challenges his say-so by not immediately complying with the order to return to the car. Also, he's now got a potential adversary who is both refusing to comply with orders and is in a better position to attack him. And, if he really did pull you over for no reason, he's going to be feeling a little guilty minded, and maybe even worrying whether the honest citizens are going to start vigorously protesting an illegal seizure.

    Not sure why he didn't arrest your pal. Maybe he wants to avoid the court looking too closely at his reason (of lack of a reason) for pulling you over. Maybe when he was angry about the holstered gun "lie", the holster was not visible to him under the seat, but he later found it under the seat, and realized testimony to the effect that the holster was right there under the seat would pretty much ruin any prosecution for unholstered gun. Or, maybe he realized you weren't really a good candidate for a fishing expedition and decided to ease up a bit on you and your friend. Kinda hard to say.

    Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure cops can legally cuff a detainee for the cop's protection during a temporary seizure. Can't recall the law to cite it, so I won't make a firm declaration. However, even having legal authority to do it, doesn't make it right in every circumstance. You can still formally complain against it. There is no requirement that you have the law on your side when making a complaint.


    http://supreme.justia.com/cases/fede.../106/case.html

    There is more here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Since you weren't speeding, is there anything else that might prompt being pulled over?

    A suspiciously loud muffler? Window tint maybe right on the borderline or definitely too dark? Vehicle suspension too high?

    Do you have any NRA stickers or anything like that on the back of the truck that might be visible from where the cop was sitting as you went past? Something that might make a questionable cop say, "Hmmm. I wonder if I can get an arrest for failure to notify?" Or, say, a "legalize marijuana" bumper sticker that might make a questionable cop think, "I wonder if I pull that truck over whether I might then smell marijuana and have probable cause to search the truck and maybe find something arrestable?"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Whether or not you decide to file a lawsuit,
    right now you need to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to get the video from the car, any radio traffic, any report filed, etc. for both the original officer & the warden...
    OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

    The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

    Let's be accurate, shall we?

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

    The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

    Let's be accurate, shall we?
    They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

    Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

    Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

    The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

    Let's be accurate, shall we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

    Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.
    Clip - mag - no difference.

    "They are being accurate." No they are not. They are being general or your term generic.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Clip - mag - no difference.

    "They are being accurate." No they are not. They are being general or your term generic.
    True. Permit me to rephrase. They are being accurate enough to convey the idea without confusion. I can see benefit from precision language in many things; I can see no benefit from demanding precision on this point. The advice recipient just looks up his state open records law and finds the text of the statute. Nobody is gonna be too confused by the terms.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.
    Well, in that case, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I am newly enlightened.

    For the information of all, in Ohio it is "open records".

    My sincere apologies to the lady.

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Why ask us? You and your buddy were stopped. Not every detail could be supplied cuz we don't have the cop's side of the equation. It is your money and time. Asking for validation one way or the other here is permitting the clock to keep on ticking. If you think you have a beef with the cops use the system to prove you were aggrieved and require redress. I recommend that you find a lawyer.....er, attorney and seek his advice.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    , Ohio, USA
    Posts
    291
    The officer said 'your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons".. Does that mean he was handed a ticket or is one coming by mail?

    How many posts have been written here and other sites where arguing with officers on the side of the road is not good business?

    I didn't read anything about a voice recording, but in so many posts, there has been a recording made, but unposted. Unless there is a recording, whether by you or a dash cam, its gonna be your word against his. Without a recording, he could of had a 5 minute conversation with you about anything traffic, related to the reason he stopped you in the first place. Your word against his.

    Do a Open Records Request, (not FOIA, for it is Federal) for the dash cam video and audio. You need to gather evidence that your stop was improper to begin with. It doesn't sound like you have grounds for any kind of a lawsuit b/c you have no damages, ie: broken arm, physical injury, shot, or incarcerated.

    IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Saint Paris, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    346
    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.
    Well, he will have to get in line. Many Saint Paris residents have complained to the city about Officer McConnell. But hes still employed, apparently.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    The officer said 'your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons".. Does that mean he was handed a ticket or is one coming by mail?

    How many posts have been written here and other sites where arguing with officers on the side of the road is not good business?

    I didn't read anything about a voice recording, but in so many posts, there has been a recording made, but unposted. Unless there is a recording, whether by you or a dash cam, its gonna be your word against his. Without a recording, he could of had a 5 minute conversation with you about anything traffic, related to the reason he stopped you in the first place. Your word against his.

    Do a Open Records Request, (not FOIA, for it is Federal) for the dash cam video and audio. You need to gather evidence that your stop was improper to begin with. It doesn't sound like you have grounds for any kind of a lawsuit b/c you have no damages, ie: broken arm, physical injury, shot, or incarcerated.

    IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.
    This is a good point. If no summons was issued, I wonder if the cop was planning to just abandon whatever he was up to while saving face.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Well, in that case, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I am newly enlightened.

    For the information of all, in Ohio it is "open records".

    My sincere apologies to the lady.
    In days of yore, it was called the "sunshine law." The "open meetings" provisions were called the "blue sky law."

    Legislators love to tag their bills with names like that.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    The officer said 'your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons".. Does that mean he was handed a ticket or is one coming by mail?
    Maybe certified mail; maybe personal service by a deputy. It will contain a copy of the complaint and a summons to appear for arraignment.

    Of course, that depends on how much discretion their prosecutor has. If the prosecutor thinks the case is crap, his buddy may never see anything.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Troy
    Posts
    2

    St Paris Cop Power Trip

    Why isnt anybody referring to what Officer mcconnells`real issue is?He is an authority drunk law officer.People are spending time in jail until after a period of 7 to 10 days only to be released when going to court because they find the charges they were arrested for by this .................................................I wont go into the case or charges but I speak from experience from a arrest this month of a family member.I do know mcconnell as well as the dept. is under investigation for his actions.There are plenty of great officers out there,but mcconnell is a mere ......... with a clipboard,firearm,and a badge.I called to speak to him myself and he bum rushed me of the phone saying he would call me back in a few minutes.That was 4 days ago.Havnt heard from him since.I also discovered he ended up in that town because he was TURNED DOWN positions at 2 other depts in other counties.More to this guys story than we know for sure.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-11-2013 at 04:37 PM. Reason: edited personal attack

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmycaster View Post
    Why isnt anybody referring to what Officer mcconnells`real issue is?He is an authority drunk law officer.People are spending time in jail until after a period of 7 to 10 days only to be released when going to court because they find the charges they were arrested for by this bedwetting crybaby mamas boy idiot of a so called police officer were not valid?He is a disgrace to law officers who put their lives on the line daily to protect the public.I wont go into the case or charges but I speak from experience from a arrest this month of a family member.I do know mcconnell as well as the dept. is under investigation for his actions.There are plenty of great officers out there,but mcconnell is a mere shidiot with a clipboard,firearm,and a badge.I called to speak to him myself and he bum rushed me of the phone saying he would call me back in a few minutes.That was 4 days ago.Havnt heard from him since.I also discovered he ended up in that town because he was TURNED DOWN positions at 2 other depts in other counties.More to this guys story than we know for sure.
    Thanks, Timmy. And, welcome to OCDO.

    Who is investigating the department?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    suburban Nashville TN
    Posts
    58

    Ohio Open Records Request

    The Ohio Attorney General's Office will send you, free, a copy of a booklet outlining Ohio Open Records Act duties in Ohio, as it pertains to government entities. Check their website.

    Also, the forum at Ohioans For Concealed Carry should give you a treasure trove of suggested OORA requests. It's important to do it right the first time.

    Good luck.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,616
    Some things just do not add up nor fit the slots provided.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •