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Thread: Point shooting?

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Point shooting?

    Anyone have an experience or training with Point Shooting? I'm buying a Ruger LCP next week, and it has probably the worst sights I've seen on a gun. People keep telling me when I get it to try to train myself for "Point Shooting". Looking on Youtube and stuff I've found about 5 Videos where people are explaining it, and about 50 where people are saying point shooting is garbage and a bad idea.

    Your thoughts?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    Anyone have an experience or training with Point Shooting? I'm buying a Ruger LCP next week, and it has probably the worst sights I've seen on a gun. People keep telling me when I get it to try to train myself for "Point Shooting". Looking on Youtube and stuff I've found about 5 Videos where people are explaining it, and about 50 where people are saying point shooting is garbage and a bad idea.

    Your thoughts?
    Get yourself a gas airsoft that is close to the Ruger, Do not use the sights you should be able to see the bright plastic pellets in flight. The secret to proper point shooting is proper grip, a straight line from the barrel through the wrist through the lower arm. If you can't get the proper grip you will have problems. The old cap and balls had a brass stud for a front sight for a reason, for combat distances you only need the front sight once you get accustomed to the proper grip. Instinct shooting uses the proper grip and no use of sights, point shooting uses the front sight like a shotgun. Once you master instinct shooting point shooting will be natural. Instinct is necessary for low light. Point shooting close quarters combat.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Walkingwolf has good advice. I have used "point shooting" on a variety of occasions. The concept is all muscle memory and reaction. Shooting at the range is muscle memory and controlled action. Both are skills to keep training on. If you are self conscious, walk the house with an empty pistol when no one else is home. It's just practice.
    That said, it is a skill I train on and have used in active shooter situations. Works for me.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Walkingwolf has good advice. I have used "point shooting" on a variety of occasions. The concept is all muscle memory and reaction. Shooting at the range is muscle memory and controlled action. Both are skills to keep training on. If you are self conscious, walk the house with an empty pistol when no one else is home. It's just practice.
    That said, it is a skill I train on and have used in active shooter situations. Works for me.
    I don't have blinds in my house...long story, but pretty sure If I walked around with my empty handgun and threw it up every few seconds, a few dozen Northville PD officers would be at my door within minutes.

    I do plan on trying this Point Shooting/Instinct shooting though. I'll take the Ruger to the range once a week and throw a few hundred rounds through it, see how long it takes me to get the skills down.

    Thanks guys!

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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I'll take the Ruger to the range once a week and throw a few hundred rounds through it, see how long it takes me to get the skills down.

    Thanks guys!
    the LCP is definitely not a range gun. it is very uncomfortable to shoot, especially if you use the mag baseplate without the lip, and is horribly innaccurate at distances due to a sloppy fitment of barrel to slide on the rear end (front fitment is solid). it's also not a gun that was designed to be shot in high volumes.

    the above is all stuff I was told before buying my LCP. I bought it anyway, and am very glad I bought it. but I agree with the above 100%.
    the LCP is tiny, extremely easy to conceal, and is designed to be very smooth cosmetically so it doesn't get caught on anything as you pull it out from concealment. it is flawless in what it was designed for.
    it is also designed specifically for very close proximity shooting. yes, it CAN shoot slight distances fairly well once you really get used to it, but that's not its purpose. have you seen the movie Timeline with justin timberlake? if so, remember when he pulls a gun out from his ankle and shoots 1 dude straight up in the neck/jaw, and the 2nd in the head from like 3 feet away? THATS what an LCP is designed for and very good at. and I think it was actually an LCP he used in the movie too.
    I will warn you, from what everyone else has told me and from my own personal experience; you will NOT like shooting 100+ rounds through the LCP at a time, it will hurt. I've done it a couple times, intentionally, to see if I'd adapt to it. and nope, still hurts lol. it is far from an ergonomically friendly gun.

    P.S. my LCP is my daily carry choice, but mostly because I'm skinny, and carrying a mid or full sized pistol can be quite uncomfortable for me at times

    P.P.S. point shooting the LCP in proximities the LCP was designed for should be fairly easy to adapt to, because the LCP was designed for very close proximities. accuracy from a distance is iffy at best even when fully bench-rested using the sights, so point shooting at these further distances is going to be equal or less accurate.

    P.P.P.S. the LCP is NOT rated for +p rounds. for a gun to be approved, it has to pass a test of firing 1 single +p round at the factory. but that's only 1 round. shooting multiple +p rounds from an LCP, especially when fired in quick sequence, will almost guaranteed blow the barrel or crack the frame. the barrel in an LCP is quite thin, and polymer frames of all guns are known for cracking when using +p rounds. hell, I actually heard one time of a guy who used +p rounds at the range frequently and the slide blew right off the gun and shattered multiple bones in his face. not sure what gun this was though.

    hope this helps at least a little
    Last edited by motoxmann; 01-09-2013 at 01:21 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    the LCP is definitely not a range gun. it is very uncomfortable to shoot, especially if you use the mag baseplate without the lip, and is horribly innaccurate at distances due to a sloppy fitment of barrel to slide on the rear end (front fitment is solid). it's also not a gun that was designed to be shot in high volumes.

    the above is all stuff I was told before buying my LCP. I bought it anyway, and am very glad I bought it. but I agree with the above 100%.
    the LCP is tiny, extremely easy to conceal, and is designed to be very smooth cosmetically so it doesn't get caught on anything as you pull it out from concealment. it is flawless in what it was designed for.
    it is also designed specifically for very close proximity shooting. yes, it CAN shoot slight distances fairly well once you really get used to it, but that's not its purpose. have you seen the movie Timeline with justin timberlake? if so, remember when he pulls a gun out from his ankle and shoots 1 dude straight up in the neck/jaw, and the 2nd in the head from like 3 feet away? THATS what an LCP is designed for and very good at. and I think it was actually an LCP he used in the movie too.
    I will warn you, from what everyone else has told me and from my own personal experience; you will NOT like shooting 100+ rounds through the LCP at a time, it will hurt. I've done it a couple times, intentionally, to see if I'd adapt to it. and nope, still hurts lol. it is far from an ergonomically friendly gun.

    P.S. my LCP is my daily carry choice, but mostly because I'm skinny, and carrying a mid or full sized pistol can be quite uncomfortable for me at times

    P.P.S. point shooting the LCP in proximities the LCP was designed for should be fairly easy to adapt to, because the LCP was designed for very close proximities. accuracy from a distance is iffy at best even when fully bench-rested using the sights, so point shooting at these further distances is going to be equal or less accurate.

    hope this helps at least a little
    One of the reasons I suggested a airsoft. Not only does that much ammo in a small gun get uncomfortable, it gets expensive. It takes a lot of ammo to get instinct shooting down, and airsoft bbs are cheap. And the bonus is the backyard is the range, unless OP lives in one of those communities where it is against the law to discharge a airsoft gun. I have a couple that I use for teaching proper grip. I got one of them from Wally world a long time ago, it uses CO2 cartridges and fires as fast as one can pull the trigger. But it is a tad bigger than a LCP.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  7. #7
    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    agreed^

    another option too though is to get a bore sight for the LCP. a fake bullet (snap cap) with a laser. around the home, just quick draw and pull the trigger, and watch where the laser points when you pull that trigger. some the laser stays on, some it only turns on when you pull the trigger and stays illuminated for a second or two, or just a quick flash. it's very helpful though, and also will teach you to not anticipate recoil. (I used to have a huge accuracy issue because I always anticipated recoil. my targets showed it, and snap caps proved it, and snap caps cured it)
    Last edited by motoxmann; 01-09-2013 at 01:27 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    agreed^

    another option too though is to get a bore sight for the LCP. a fake bullet (snap cap) with a laser. around the home, just quick draw and pull the trigger, and watch where the laser points when you pull that trigger. some the laser stays on, some it only turns on when you pull the trigger and stays illuminated for a second or two, or just a quick flash. it's very helpful though, and also will teach you to not anticipate recoil. (I used to have a huge accuracy issue because I always anticipated recoil. my targets showed it, and snap caps proved it, and snap caps cured it)
    Pretty much what he ^ says.

    As for "I don't have blinds in my house...long story, ...." - go tack up some sheets over your windows. This is not rocket surgery here.

    "Shooting to Live with One Hand" should be available either on line or at your local gun show Paladin press curently has it on sale: http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Shooting_to_Live . Check out http://www.pointshooting.com/1afas.htm for some basic info.

    When my eyes started going bad I had to choose between seeing the target or seing my sights. Since the target and what it was doing was more important to me, I learned to point shoot. D.R. Middlebrooks has a good system he calls Fist Fire. http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=380.0 It's not hard to learn and become good at - he has trained several champions as well as winning a slew of titles himself. (Yes, he has an "attitude" - but you would too if folks put down your technique but refused to go head to head with you to see who was better.) I live close enough that I got training from him. I still cannot clean a plate rack at 100 yards like he does - but thats because I don't own a plate rack, don't have a 100-yard range, and therefore never practiced doing that. He has the means and does practice regularly.

    stay safe.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Pick a system, if it does not work try another. Here is something that should help, no gun, just point your finger at an object, notice the straight line from elbow to tip of finger. If you are not pointing at the target you are not going to hit it, this is why grip is so important. Next get a bag of rubber bands. Play rubber band army keeping conscious of your straight line grip. You would be surprised the distance one can make a hit with just looking at the target. Think of baseball, basketball, football, all without sights purely technique and follow through. Practice makes perfect, but you will only get frustrated without proper grip. If the gun is not inline in your hand you will have problems becoming consistent. Nothing against the roll over grip, but I don't think Bob Munden used it.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Pick a system, if it does not work try another. Here is something that should help, no gun, just point your finger at an object, notice the straight line from elbow to tip of finger. If you are not pointing at the target you are not going to hit it, this is why grip is so important. Next get a bag of rubber bands. Play rubber band army keeping conscious of your straight line grip. You would be surprised the distance one can make a hit with just looking at the target. Think of baseball, basketball, football, all without sights purely technique and follow through. Practice makes perfect, but you will only get frustrated without proper grip. If the gun is not inline in your hand you will have problems becoming consistent. Nothing against the roll over grip, but I don't think Bob Munden used it.
    +1

    In the years past it was the norm to try and teach every student the same grip and stance. I have had instructors get on my case because my foot was pointed off the PROPER angle just a bit.

    It turn out that who ever was winning matchs at the time was the hotest and the best at the time.

    When I became one of the lead instructors for my 500 man department. We changed from do it are way or else to let show them 3 or 4 ways of stance and grip. and see what works for them.

    Body,hand size if your right or left handed and other factors all comes into play as long as they were shooting well and not doing any thing dangerous to them selfs or others I didn't care if the angle of the foot or ebow was off a bit.
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