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Thread: So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Ok so just got our apartment renewal paperwork and besides some fees they are trying to add there is a line about not having any firearms in common areas or in public spaces. Ok common areas is within their rights but isn't public supposed to be public? Going to have a little talk with their regional manager tomorrow about it because the addendum package was bigger than the lease paperwork. The way it is worded there is not even a clause for transporting it out of your place to go anywhere. Of course they have the law enforcement clause in there. Anyone know where I can become a stand by deputy? Still won't be able to go to some Denny's though.

    The only reason we are planning to stay is my wife is supposed to give birth the week before our lease was up and financial reasons. At least I will have a topic in mind for lobby day about renters rights.

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    My place does that too.

    I carry everywhere. I conduct myself in a professional manner. I never get any negative comments.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Yeah funny how many times I have carried into the office with no problems even with the local manager which I butted heads with quite a bit. The management company is in Maryland so they are doing a standard add on for all the complexes. They have the renewal screwed up such as a one time fee for my pet which has been there for 5 years and we pay a fee for. A security deposit which we paid when we moved in originally. The biggest peeve is not we are supposed to pay a 400 dollar fee to support the pool, gym, computer center. Maybe I should give them 100 since I use only the pool.

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    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    I understand why they would want to have that listed as it creates a gun free zone and makes people feel all safe and everything.

    We all know the real deal and that it is just dumb. But they are in business to make money and rent the units out. If this helps.. great!! I guess the odds are that gun owners will find another place or just keep them hidden.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Well talked to a regional manager and his concern was with it being displayed according to their policy. I asked him according to the letter of their policy how would I even take it to my car. He said that was a good question and escalating it up to their next level. He said concealed shouldn't be a problem but you know I want to follow the rules so asking how that can be done because even that would be violating them. Anxious to hear from the next manager.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    They can probably get away with banning guns in the common areas, as in saying you cannot have one with you while you lounge out by the pool, or sit in the middle of the grass out front, or even while you are using the laundry facility.

    But I doubt they could get away with saying you could not transport a gun from your apartment to your vehicle, or from your vehicle to your apartment.

    If they start to go down that road you might suggest to them that you really would not want to bring the ACLU and a lawsuit down on their heads. (Yes, ACLU is generally anti-gun but that is one of the "exceptions" they seem to make, based on the fear of other things being prohibited from being transported between your dwelling and your vehicle.)

    Saying you "would be OK if you concealed it" is a load of BS - they would be trying to force you to get a CHP or, if you already have one (which they have no business knowing about) to force you to utilize it, as opposed to you deciding when and where to exercise the privilege.

    stay safe.
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    I think you should just carry everywhere until you actually get confronted.

    Now, im not saying go to the pool and dive in with your sidearm of choice loyally duck taped to your thigh... but just continue your daily routine.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    I think you should just carry everywhere until you actually get confronted.

    Now, im not saying go to the pool and dive in with your sidearm of choice loyally duck taped to your thigh... but just continue your daily routine.
    With active and actual notice via the manager and the lease, OCing in the common areas would be a violation of the lease agreement and grounds for eviction. Granted it takes some time to have an eviction action processed to the point of having your stuff and yourself set on the sidewalk, but having a record of being evicted (action filed or actually set out on the street) makes it that much harder to find another place.

    What we need is a better definition of "curtilage" as it applies to an apartment renter, thus better declaring the boundaries within which the apartment owner/management company would not be able to interfere with the keeping and bearing of arms. Since the company I rent from approves positively of me OCing (says it keeps the riff and the raff in the neighborhood down) I'm not likely to be your test case. I will, however, chip in an initial $100 to the "defense fund" of someone who looks like a good test case.

    stay safe.
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    OP, does it (lease) define "firearms?"....

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    No definition.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    OP, does it (lease) define "firearms?"....
    Still searching for loopholes, I see.

    [/several snarky comments and one biting reflection on your current situation of which I though better before hitting Submit Reply]

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member mbhudson's Avatar
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    check va code

    Quote Originally Posted by Uber_Olafsun View Post
    Ok so just got our apartment renewal paperwork and besides some fees they are trying to add there is a line about not having any firearms in common areas or in public spaces. Ok common areas is within their rights but isn't public supposed to be public? Going to have a little talk with their regional manager tomorrow about it because the addendum package was bigger than the lease paperwork. The way it is worded there is not even a clause for transporting it out of your place to go anywhere. Of course they have the law enforcement clause in there. Anyone know where I can become a stand by deputy? Still won't be able to go to some Denny's though.

    The only reason we are planning to stay is my wife is supposed to give birth the week before our lease was up and financial reasons. At least I will have a topic in mind for lobby day about renters rights.
    I believe you will find that points 1 and 6 may apply here
    55-248.9. Prohibited provisions in rental agreements.

    A. A rental agreement shall not contain provisions that the tenant:

    1. Agrees to waive or forego rights or remedies under this chapter;

    2. Agrees to waive or forego rights or remedies pertaining to the 120-day conversion or rehabilitation notice required in the Condominium Act ( 55-79.39 et seq.), the Virginia Real Estate Cooperative Act ( 55-424 et seq.) or Chapter 13 ( 55-217 et seq.) of this title;

    3. Authorizes any person to confess judgment on a claim arising out of the rental agreement;

    4. Agrees to pay the landlord's attorney's fees except as provided in this chapter;

    5. Agrees to the exculpation or limitation of any liability of the landlord to the tenant arising under law or to indemnify the landlord for that liability or the costs connected therewith;

    6. Agrees as a condition of tenancy in public housing to a prohibition or restriction of any lawful possession of a firearm within individual dwelling units unless required by federal law or regulation; or

    7. Agrees to both the payment of a security deposit and the provision of a bond or commercial insurance policy purchased by the tenant to secure the performance of the terms and conditions of a rental agreement, if the total of the security deposit and the bond or insurance premium exceeds the amount of two months' periodic rent.

    B. A provision prohibited by subsection A included in a rental agreement is unenforceable. If a landlord brings an action to enforce any of the prohibited provisions, the tenant may recover actual damages sustained by him and reasonable attorney's fees.

    i would think that common sense would dictate that if they cant restrict firearms within dwelling then they cant restrict transporting of firearm to and from dwelling and you have the right to carry in public but that gets tricky as there is public referring to property and public as in in public view example would be a bar is on private property but you can get arrested for being drunk in public while there

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    #1 addresses "rights or remedies" related to the implementation and enforcement of the Landlord-Tenant Act. It does not address any other rights or remedies a person might have anywhere else.

    Folks might find these interesting reading:

    http://courses.washington.edu/civpro...StatuteMAP.doc

    http://www.tlc.state.tx.us/pubslegref/readingabill.pdf - you will need to make certain adjustments to fit states other than Texas

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-research#readStatute - the "How to read a law" part especially, but it's all good

    http://lawbore.net/articles/letterstoalawstudent.pdf - "Reading Statutes" is about halfway

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/97-589.pdf - a "style booK for both the writing of and interpreting of statutes (focuses on trying to get Congress to do a better job).

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member mbhudson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    #1 addresses "rights or remedies" related to the implementation and enforcement of the Landlord-Tenant Act. It does not address any other rights or remedies a person might have anywhere else.

    Folks might find these interesting reading:

    http://courses.washington.edu/civpro...StatuteMAP.doc

    http://www.tlc.state.tx.us/pubslegref/readingabill.pdf - you will need to make certain adjustments to fit states other than Texas

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-research#readStatute - the "How to read a law" part especially, but it's all good

    http://lawbore.net/articles/letterstoalawstudent.pdf - "Reading Statutes" is about halfway

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/97-589.pdf - a "style booK for both the writing of and interpreting of statutes (focuses on trying to get Congress to do a better job).

    stay safe.
    yhanks for the reading material

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Here is the email I received back. Names of myself and apartment not posted by my choice right now

    This email serves to authorize Mr. J of P apartments to transport his firearms in a concealed and safe manner between his vehicle and his apartment. Please let me know if you have any questions.


    Now this makes me wonder. Anyone else that lives here could ask the same thing and since it is private property the apartment could let them conceal couldn't they? I asked for a letter for my wife as well and have some more friends to do the same. The friends don't even own a firearm but the more work the complex has to do the better.

    Side note is they waived every other fee they were trying to do.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uber_Olafsun View Post
    Here is the email I received back. Names of myself and apartment not posted by my choice right now

    This email serves to authorize Mr. J of P apartments to transport his firearms in a concealed and safe manner between his vehicle and his apartment. Please let me know if you have any questions.


    Now this makes me wonder. Anyone else that lives here could ask the same thing and since it is private property the apartment could let them conceal couldn't they? I asked for a letter for my wife as well and have some more friends to do the same. The friends don't even own a firearm but the more work the complex has to do the better.

    Side note is they waived every other fee they were trying to do.
    Actually, no. The concealed carry law has no provision for a property owner to grant a third party the right to carry a concealed handgun.

    And if you think about it, this makes sense. The purpose of concealed weapon laws is to protect the general public against being "surprised" by a person who might suddenly produce a weapon. It would violate the very purpose of the law to allow someone to grant this permission. I suppose the exception granted to property owners (only while in their place of business and while around their own homes*) derives from the fact that a property owner could easily have a weapon hidden within reach but out of sight anyway, so there is really no point in having the concealed weapon restriction for them in those places.

    * Remember, even property owners may not carry concealed on their own property without a permit, once they leave the area described as "in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof."

    So to rehash the point of the post... if the particular resident does not have a CHP, then no, the apartment management may NOT authorize them to carry their handgun in a concealed manner between the apartment and the vehicle.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 01-16-2013 at 07:44 AM. Reason: ETA: Clarification

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Any law references to back that up? Would love to hit their compliance officer with it. I thought you could carry however on your property an let others do the same?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uber_Olafsun View Post
    Any law references to back that up? Would love to hit their compliance officer with it. I thought you could carry however on your property an let others do the same?
    Well, yes, the CHP law itself.

    Summarized:

    Paragraph A: You may not carry a concealed handgun.

    Paragraphs B&C: Unless... long list of exceptions, including your "place of abode or the curtilage thereof", which does not include ALL your property. Some debate on the definition of "curtilage", but generally means the area in and around your home, such that one might expect to reasonably have some privacy. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage

    None of the listed exceptions to the law include obtaining the permission of the property owner, therefore you would still be subject to the general prohibition in Paragraph A.

    Paragraphs D through pretty much the rest of the code have to do with getting a CHP.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Actually, no. The concealed carry law has no provision for a property owner to grant a third party the right to carry a concealed handgun.

    And if you think about it, this makes sense. The purpose of concealed weapon laws is to protect the general public against being "surprised" by a person who might suddenly produce a weapon. It would violate the very purpose of the law to allow someone to grant this permission. I suppose the exception granted to property owners (only while in their place of business and while around their own homes*) derives from the fact that a property owner could easily have a weapon hidden within reach but out of sight anyway, so there is really no point in having the concealed weapon restriction for them in those places.

    * Remember, even property owners may not carry concealed on their own property without a permit, once they leave the area described as "in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof."

    So to rehash the point of the post... if the particular resident does not have a CHP, then no, the apartment management may NOT authorize them to carry their handgun in a concealed manner between the apartment and the vehicle.

    TFred
    Being very pedantic about it, there are a few places where it does allow the property owner to grant a third party the right to carry concealed. 18.2-308, Section O:

    O.
    The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
    By extension, a private property owner may selectively grant permission to some and prohibit others.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Being very pedantic about it, there are a few places where it does allow the property owner to grant a third party the right to carry concealed. 18.2-308, Section O:

    O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

    By extension, a private property owner may selectively grant permission to some and prohibit others.

    stay safe.
    I don't agree, I think your conclusion is a complete misinterpretation of that paragraph. Your reasoning is akin to trying to push a rope, you're looking at it from the wrong direction. The permission to carry concealed is entirely granted by the permit. That paragraph just clarifies that the permit does not override the right of the property owner to deny you the right to carry at all.

    That is the most-misinterpreted paragraph of gun law in the entire Code of Virginia! I really wish they would clarify it.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't agree, I think your conclusion is a complete misinterpretation of that paragraph. Your reasoning is akin to trying to push a rope, you're looking at it from the wrong direction. The permission to carry concealed is entirely granted by the permit. That paragraph just clarifies that the permit does not override the right of the property owner to deny you the right to carry at all.
    TFred
    +1

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    In a way that would work better because how would they carry it if they can't conceal it? Need to have my friends call in.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't agree, I think your conclusion is a complete misinterpretation of that paragraph. Your reasoning is akin to trying to push a rope, you're looking at it from the wrong direction. The permission to carry concealed is entirely granted by the permit. That paragraph just clarifies that the permit does not override the right of the property owner to deny you the right to carry at all.

    That is the most-misinterpreted paragraph of gun law in the entire Code of Virginia! I really wish they would clarify it.

    TFred
    If folks can claim that 18.2-308.1 allows staff/others to carry in schools I can make the same claim here.

    I actually think I'm on firmer ground. Property owner can post "NO GUNZ" but give written exemptions to specific individuals, and can limit the exemption to CC only or OC only, or anyC.

    I do, however, agree with your interpretation of the intent of that section. But we all know what's paved with intentions.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  24. #24
    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    So my apartment complex is trying the no guns in common area thing

    Ok update time. Well since my last post the management has given us letters that we can both carry concealed to our cars (have permit so not an issue legal wise). Now here is the fun part.

    Last month someone started a fire in the bathroom of our cyber cafe attached to the office. Management has no idea who it was because the security camera evidently didn't have it's disk exchanged that day. The was a fire previously in a complex down the street same type deal. Why they have a disk vs hard drives and backups I don't know

    We also just received an email about some cars on the back end of the complex that we're broken in to and had the airbags removed. They said that this crew has evidently been in the local area for awhile.

    I had spoken to the manager this last weekend because of rumors that a band of kids had been hanging out in the bushes hiding and running away made me question their security and mine. Looks like I was right. I had told her that some other residents and myself were looking into a neighborhood watch program or something like that. Well looks like they are going to have fairfax pd come out and have a community meeting. Oh boy I can't wait.

    Here are some of the questions I am going to ask at the meeting

    Why don't all contractors and employees have a name tag or anything to indenting them on?
    Do they think the recent change in apartment policy may have been a cause?
    What other crimes have happened in the last few years that were not sent out to the residents?

    Anything else you guys can think of to ask?

  25. #25
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    Not a response to anything in particular, but a couple of observations about the topic generally:

    1) There are three kinds of leasehold interests, and only "a term for years" is an interest in real property. That's a lease in which the landlord conveys the property for one or more terms measured in years (as opposed to months, weeks, or days). So if the lease says, "twelve months", that's a period tenancy, but if it says, "one year", that's a term for years. Because everything other than a term for years conveys an interest in personal property, not real property, the landlord is pretty much in charge - the personal property interest conveyed is a contractual interest, i.e., the lease itself, rather than the real estate. So most commercial rental projects, if not all, are careful to spell out the term of the lease in months. That means that the lease controls everything, and they generally say things like, "we can make up any regulations we want to at any time with or without notice to you, and you have to abide by them". And the only general limitation is that the regulations cannot interfere with the tenant's right to "quiet enjoyment" of the leasehold interest.

    2) HOWEVER, most such places are subject to the Virginia Residential Landlord and Tenant Act. And there is a provision in the act that covers the situation we're talking about:
    55-248.9. Prohibited provisions in rental agreements.

    A. A rental agreement shall not contain provisions that the tenant:
    ...
    6. Agrees as a condition of tenancy in public housing to a prohibition or restriction of any lawful possession of a firearm within individual dwelling units unless required by federal law or regulation; or ...
    So they can tell you that you cannot have alcoholic beverages in your apartment, but they cannot restrict your right to be in possession of a firearm "within individual dwelling units" on the property, and that includes reasonable access to the apartments. But "common areas" is a diffent kettle of fish, and someone has apparently figured that out. So my opinion is that if they have a regulation that says "no firearms in common areas", that means those common areas that have nothing to do with your ability to get to your apartment, but it's otherwise effective if the regulation is legally part of the lease contract.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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