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Thread: OC'd for first time tonight

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    OC'd for first time tonight

    I OC'd for the first time tonight. It was just to the redbox down the street and then to the gas station, but I thought it went well. I'm not sure if the clerk even noticed.

    I've been watching some of the OC stop videos on You Tube and I was a little confused by them because it seemed like they indicated that you can't carry it loaded? I wasn't 100% sure so I OC'd empty this time. I could have sworn the law said that with my handgun carry permit I could carry loaded, but now I'm going to have to look it up agian after watching those videos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1P2 View Post
    I OC'd for the first time tonight. It was just to the redbox down the street and then to the gas station, but I thought it went well. I'm not sure if the clerk even noticed.

    I've been watching some of the OC stop videos on You Tube and I was a little confused by them because it seemed like they indicated that you can't carry it loaded? I wasn't 100% sure so I OC'd empty this time. I could have sworn the law said that with my handgun carry permit I could carry loaded, but now I'm going to have to look it up agian after watching those videos.
    Those videos were probably from California. Up until January 1, 2012, it was legal to openly carry without a permit in California, provided that the gun itself was unloaded (you were allowed to have a loaded magazine, as long as it wasn't attached to the firearm; many people would carry the firearm on one side of their body and the loaded magazine on the other). Now, the law in California has been changed so that open carry is generally illegal, subject to some exceptions.

    The law in Tennessee is completely different. As long as you have your permit, you can carry the gun loaded and, if it's a semi-automatic, even have one in the chamber (as long as you have a decent holster, I recommend this; you don't want to have to fiddle with loading your gun during a high-stress defensive situation). Also, Tennessee's law makes no distinction between open and concealed carry. You may carry openly anywhere that you may carry concealed; and you cannot legally carry openly anywhere that you cannot legally carry concealed.

    Also, you mentioned that the clerk didn't seem to notice. Don't be surprised. You MIGHT attract some attention in the big-4 Tennessee cities (Knoxville, Chattanooga, Nashville, and especially the liberal-leaning Memphis). Anywhere else, don't be surprised if 95% of the people you meet don't notice and another 4% notice but don't care, leaving only 1% that notice and care. Of that 1%, many of them will actually complement you on it, ask out of curiosity what type of gun it is, etc. Only a very small number will give you what I call the "stink eye", or panic and call 911 with what's referred to around here as a "man with a gun" call (or woman, as the case may be). As far as me personally, I can count on my hands the number of people that I know for sure have noticed it; and I've carried it around probably a few hundred people during the length of time I've openly carried. Also, so far, I've had only one MWAG; and that one was resolved very quickly after showing the officers my permit (if you want to read about it, go to the "TN Open Carry Report" thread that is stickied at the top of this board and read posts 195, 196, and 197).
    Last edited by Nascar24Glock; 01-10-2013 at 03:00 AM.
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    What Nascar24Glock said....
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    Zip2, If you are going out with your gun unloaded,leave it at home. You can carry loaded in TN,you have a permit then you are legal.I myself would much more want to carry a rock as opposed to an unloaded weapon.
    Last edited by RickTN; 01-13-2013 at 10:11 AM.

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    Just wanted to make sure I was in complete compliance with the law as some of those videos got me confused.
    It's still better to OC with an unloaded firearm than to not carry at all. The meer sight of a gun is enough to deter many would-be muggers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1P2 View Post
    Just wanted to make sure I was in complete compliance with the law as some of those videos got me confused.
    It's still better to OC with an unloaded firearm than to not carry at all. The meer sight of a gun is enough to deter many would-be muggers.
    I agree that the site of an OCed weapon can be a deterent, but I still would not carry an unloaded weapon.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I agree. I'm from Columbia and hardly get so much as a glance from anyone to include LEO, same in Nashville. The most attention a LEO has ever given me at home was a thumbs up. My dad taught me from a young age that an unloaded firearm(for defensive purposes) is like a dull knife, not very useful. My TN permit says "Handgun Carry Permit", not Concealed Carry Permit, therefore not differentiating between the two. 99% of the time I OC, the other 1%, I simply put my shirt tail over it, just kinda depends on where I'm visiting. My advise to the OP is to be aware of the carry laws of the state you're in, no matter were your permit is issued. TN honors almost all state permits, but doesn't excuse anyone for ignorance of the law. Not to say you did anything wrong, but had you read the law, you would have known WE carry loaded.

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    Kevin R. Hubbard
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    Well that's what I thought and was taught in the handgun safety course I took to get the HCP, but then watched those videos and got a bit confused by them. Anyway, no big deal that I went out unloaded one time and didn't need to use it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1P2 View Post
    Well that's what I thought and was taught in the handgun safety course I took to get the HCP, but then watched those videos and got a bit confused by them. Anyway, no big deal that I went out unloaded one time and didn't need to use it anyway.
    Well, look on the bright side. From the perspective of the law, it is better to carry unloaded where you didn't know that you may carry loaded, than it is to carry loaded where you didn't know that you must carry unloaded.

    At least you know from here on out that you are completely legal in carrying one fully loaded with one in the chamber.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1P2 View Post
    I OC'd for the first time tonight. It was just to the redbox down the street and then to the gas station, but I thought it went well. I'm not sure if the clerk even noticed.

    I've been watching some of the OC stop videos on You Tube and I was a little confused by them because it seemed like they indicated that you can't carry it loaded? I wasn't 100% sure so I OC'd empty this time. I could have sworn the law said that with my handgun carry permit I could carry loaded, but now I'm going to have to look it up agian after watching those videos.

    I also just started to open carry. Mainly in the Donelson area of Nashville. I'm just making sure to check local business entries to see if they have posted gunbuster signs. So far so good. Donelson Firestone, Papa Johns, Kroger, and various gas stations are all clear. Good Luck!!

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    Thanks friend!

    Yeah Kroger has always been pro-OC even way back when I worked there, so it's good to see they are continuing that policy. Walmart too, in fact Walmart has been known to fire managers that ask someone legally OC'ing in their stores to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1P2 View Post
    I've been watching some of the OC stop videos on You Tube and I was a little confused by them because it seemed like they indicated that you can't carry it loaded? I wasn't 100% sure so I OC'd empty this time. I could have sworn the law said that with my handgun carry permit I could carry loaded, but now I'm going to have to look it up agian after watching those videos.
    I would also agree with RickTN, IMO carrying an unloaded firearm could put you in a dangerous situation when you mightve needed it that one time. You're basically carrying an expensive paperweight ;-P

    Try and read up on local gun laws or ask questions before if you're unsure. Other than that, stay safe and carry on!

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    OC'ing empty would not save you from any criminal charge either. Carrying a weapon where prohibited is just what it says. Although you might could argue that as a defense, the statute doesn't specify loaded or unloaded. As the others have mentioned, there's not much point in carrying at all if it's not loaded.

    If the doorbuster sign is not posted clearly and you happen to miss it, then it's likely the establishment is not meeting statutory standards. I think most places would ask you to leave if they were uncomfortable with it in their place of business. I don't recall many going straight to the police with it unless some aggravating circumstances existed (i.e. acting suspicious, drunk).

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    MWAG call ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    ....Also, so far, I've had only one MWAG; and that one was resolved very quickly after showing the officers my permit (if you want to read about it, go to the "TN Open Carry Report" thread that is stickied at the top of this board and read posts 195, 196, and 197).
    I have not had the occasion to OC since moving to TN last year. Normally, I only do so in warm weather, and only because I don't want the bother of covering.

    If and when I do, I surely hope I don't experience a MWAG call. It does not seem that any basis exists for LEO to respond to such a call, assuming the only information given is "the guy has a gun on his belt". If that is ALL that is reported, what crime is being committed ?? He MIGHT not have a TN handgun permit -- but that, in and of itself, is not sufficient justification for even a Terry stop. If it were, LEO in TN would be justified in randomly stopping any motorist on a TN highway ("he's driving a vehicle, and he MIGHT not have a TN operator's license" !). Mere suspicion that an OC'er MIGHT not have a license is insufficient to warrant even a stop, IMHO.

    Like I say, I hope I never experience it. If I do, I'll cooperate with them, but you can bet your bottom dollar I am going to raise h*ll 3 ways from Sunday as soon as we're finished.

    Now, if the caller reported that I was waving the gun around --- well, #1, they have the right to stop me and investigate, but #2, I'll be pursuing charges against the original caller for making unsubstantiated allegations in their call to LEO.

    And don't try to give me the "disturbing the peace" argument. I would be very surprised if the LEGAL open carry of a weapon would ever be found to constitute "disturbing the peace" under any statute in TN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by docachna View Post
    I have not had the occasion to OC since moving to TN last year. Normally, I only do so in warm weather, and only because I don't want the bother of covering.

    If and when I do, I surely hope I don't experience a MWAG call. It does not seem that any basis exists for LEO to respond to such a call, assuming the only information given is "the guy has a gun on his belt". If that is ALL that is reported, what crime is being committed ?? He MIGHT not have a TN handgun permit -- but that, in and of itself, is not sufficient justification for even a Terry stop. If it were, LEO in TN would be justified in randomly stopping any motorist on a TN highway ("he's driving a vehicle, and he MIGHT not have a TN operator's license" !). Mere suspicion that an OC'er MIGHT not have a license is insufficient to warrant even a stop, IMHO.

    Like I say, I hope I never experience it. If I do, I'll cooperate with them, but you can bet your bottom dollar I am going to raise h*ll 3 ways from Sunday as soon as we're finished.

    Now, if the caller reported that I was waving the gun around --- well, #1, they have the right to stop me and investigate, but #2, I'll be pursuing charges against the original caller for making unsubstantiated allegations in their call to LEO.

    And don't try to give me the "disturbing the peace" argument. I would be very surprised if the LEGAL open carry of a weapon would ever be found to constitute "disturbing the peace" under any statute in TN.
    You asked what an MWAG is. MWAG is an acronymn commonly used on this forum; it means "man with a gun call" (i.e., a panicked call to 911 from someone that doesn't know that carrying a gun with a permit is legal).

    And, the reason that they have the ability to respond is due to the way Tennessee law is written. In most states where a permit is required to carry, the law says that it is illegal to carry and that the permit is an EXCEPTION to the charge (i.e., it will be written with words such as "The provisions of this statute shall not apply to ...[list of exceptions]...(x) persons with a carry permit"). In Tennessee, carrying is illegal period; the permit is a DEFENSE to the charge. In the legal system, whenever something is a "defense" to a charge, it means that the defendant must prove, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the defense applies to his/her situation. I'm not aware of anyone being treated this way. But, in theory, even if you do show your permit, the officer could arrest you on the spot (since, remember, it is illegal to carry period); and the prosecutor could go ahead to trial with the charges and force you to prove your innocence to the jury.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    Doca I would heed Nascar's advice strongly as your assumptions about what LEOs can or cannot do in TN involving an armed person are INCORRECT.

    As he has already pointed out we don't even need to be called to you to stop, detain, and verify your permit. It's illegal to carry in TN period. Having a handgun carry permit is simply a defense to carrying. If you read the state law involving handgun carry, you must present your permit upon demand of a LEO. We do not need reasonable suspicion. If we see a handgun we can approach and verify you're carrying it legally by asking for your permit. Now with that said I normally don't approach and ask to see it unless something else exists that may warrant it. You will probably not know what that is and I may or may not advise you why. Every contact/call is different.

    As far as "pursuing charges" against the caller who reported you, that isn't going to happen. Maybe if the person is calling hourly or daily there might be a chance of misuse of the 911 system, but aside from that a district attorney (or LEO for that matter) would never pursue it.

    Read TCA 39-17-1307, 39-17-1308 and 39-17-1351

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Doca I would heed Nascar's advice strongly as your assumptions about what LEOs can or cannot do in TN involving an armed person are INCORRECT.

    As he has already pointed out we don't even need to be called to you to stop, detain, and verify your permit. It's illegal to carry in TN period. Having a handgun carry permit is simply a defense to carrying. If you read the state law involving handgun carry, you must present your permit upon demand of a LEO. We do not need reasonable suspicion. If we see a handgun we can approach and verify you're carrying it legally by asking for your permit. Now with that said I normally don't approach and ask to see it unless something else exists that may warrant it. You will probably not know what that is and I may or may not advise you why. Every contact/call is different.

    As far as "pursuing charges" against the caller who reported you, that isn't going to happen. Maybe if the person is calling hourly or daily there might be a chance of misuse of the 911 system, but aside from that a district attorney (or LEO for that matter) would never pursue it.

    Read TCA 39-17-1307, 39-17-1308 and 39-17-1351
    I am going to make one slight correction. Technically, you do need reasonable articulable suspicion to instigate an investigatory detention. However, because carrying is illegal period subject to defenses as opposed to exceptions, the mere presence of the weapon automatically creates reasonable articulable suspicion in Tennessee. At that point, you can ask for the permit or proof that they meet some other defense. For example, having a gun in your own home is also a defense. So, let's say you voluntarily let an officer into your home; and he sees a gun there. He could in theory arrest you on the spot; and the prosecutor could in theory take it to trial and force you to bring in your house deed to show to the jury. If he didn't want to go that far, he could threaten to arrest you if you don't produce some sort of proof that you live there (say, a house deed or a driver's license with that address on it).

    Bottom line, Tennessee's law on weapons is very poorly written and open to abuse if a rogue sheriff and prosecutor ever decided to utilize it.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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    Technically, you do need reasonable articulable suspicion to instigate an investigatory detention.
    I think that was established. He seems to believe that we need more than just open sight of a firearm to conduct the investigatory detention. I don't think you will find many officers stopping OC'ers in TN, but as you have already pointed out, we can based on how 39-17-1307 is written. The only time I've removed weapons from permit holders is when they were arrested for an unrelated offense.

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