Gun grab questions

Zohan · Jan 10, 2013

There was another thread posted here that mentioned a posting on CL where the author states something to the effect of: that the OCer should stop carrying or he will come knock him on the head and take his gun away.

I am wondering 2 things:
1. Will the propaganda campain in the media may casue folks to try to grab at OCers' guns in an effort to try to prove that folks who carry can not safely control their weapons by showing how easy it may be to disarm someone. (BTW-I dont think and am not saying it is easy to remove firearm from someone who has one properly holstered).

2. If someone does try to grab your firearm from your holster, even just to test your awareness, what is the appropriate response? Granted, I believe the appropriate response is to safeguard the firearm and draw down on the assailant as matter of protecting oneself against further assault...but how else would this be handled by those here? Would you order the person to the ground? Call the police? There is a "what if scenario" running through my head where someone against the carry/possesion of firearms uses this tactic to antagonize a LAC with a friend of theirs standing by as witness and then they both falsely accuse the LAC of drawing down on them for no apparent reason causing the LAC to be arrested and have to swim upstream against the legal system.

Does this not happen strictly because folks are affraid they my get shot in the process or do scenarios similar to this where folks test/antagonize LACs actually happen?

-Z

jsanchez · Jan 10, 2013

Zohan said:
There was another thread posted here that mentioned a posting on CL where the author states something to the effect of: that the OCer should stop carrying or he will come knock him on the head and take his gun away.

I am wondering 2 things:
1. Will the propaganda campain in the media may casue folks to try to grab at OCers' guns in an effort to try to prove that folks who carry can not safely control their weapons by showing how easy it may be to disarm someone. (BTW-I dont think and am not saying it is easy to remove firearm from someone who has one properly holstered).

2. If someone does try to grab your firearm from your holster, even just to test your awareness, what is the appropriate response? Granted, I believe the appropriate response is to safeguard the firearm and draw down on the assailant as matter of protecting oneself against further assault...but how else would this be handled by those here? Would you order the person to the ground? Call the police? There is a "what if scenario" running through my head where someone against the carry/possesion of firearms uses this tactic to antagonize a LAC with a friend of theirs standing by as witness and then they both falsely accuse the LAC of drawing down on them for no apparent reason causing the LAC to be arrested and have to swim upstream against the legal system.

Does this not happen strictly because folks are affraid they my get shot in the process or do scenarios similar to this where folks test/antagonize LACs actually happen?

-Z

This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If it was me I would size up the situration. Is the person fooling around, if they are I would tell them thats not cool and what were you thinking, and then listen to their reply.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

Now that I think of it, I only had one occasion where someone kept going to my gun side and acted like he may take my gun, he was talking crazy about wanting a gun to kill someone. It was at Cal Anderson Park a week before the aclu was having a annaverery party there. The person was that indian guy Williams that was shot by the police a couple of weeks later. He made me so nearvous I had to walk away from him.

1245A Defender · Jan 10, 2013

really?

jsanchez said:
This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If it was me I would size up the situration. Is the person fooling around, if they are I would tell them thats not cool and what were you thinking, and then listen to their reply.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

Now that I think of it, I only had one occasion where someone kept going to my gun side and acted like he may take my gun, he was talking crazy about wanting a gun to kill someone. It was at Cal Anderson Park a week before the aclu was having a annaverery party there. The person was that indian guy Williams that was shot by the police a couple of weeks later. He made me so nearvous I had to walk away from him.

Out of the dozens of threads where the Birking of Williams was extensively written about,,,
Why did you never mention this interesting and relevent little tidbit?

skeith5 · Jan 10, 2013

I would suggest a weapons retention class would be in order. Find one that also includes self defense law. I only open carry with my safariland als which had a pretty good retention system in it, a good place to start.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

BAMF · Jan 10, 2013

Your elbow is a grand tool in this situatation... Very hard and solid

1st is situation awareness, If theres someone behind you and you dont see them your wrong! You always need to be aware of your back

2nd If you do happen to feel a tug on your waist band a quick spin with your elbow up is a good in two ways, If the tuger is close enough he gets hit with the elbow this will throw most everyone of guard, and it gets you turned around fast to face your Attacker.

3rd is my own reaction DRAW if he is intent on attacking you hes coming back so be ready.

look at your threat than decide your best course of action After step 2 it really depends on the situation and there are too many "What Ifs'' out there to go over. But steps 1,2 are the best in my opinion.

Jeff Hayes · Jan 10, 2013

BAMF said:
Your elbow is a grand tool in this situatation... Very hard and solid

1st is situation awareness, If theres someone behind you and you dont see them your wrong! You always need to be aware of your back

2nd If you do happen to feel a tug on your waist band a quick spin with your elbow up is a good in two ways, If the tuger is close enough he gets hit with the elbow this will throw most everyone of guard, and it gets you turned around fast to face your Attacker.

3rd is my own reaction DRAW if he is intent on attacking you hes coming back so be ready.

look at your threat than decide your best course of action After step 2 it really depends on the situation and there are too many "What Ifs'' out there to go over. But steps 1,2 are the best in my opinion.

What BAMF said^^^^^^^^^^

Jeff Hayes · Jan 10, 2013

jsanchez said:
in the adams apple trying to kill them.

Wow I would only be trying to stop the threat, but that is just me.

acmariner99 · Jan 10, 2013

I can speak to this - a couple of years ago somebody tried to grab my weapon in an attempt to gauge how I would react http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...t-Washington&highlight=Scary+Target+Encounter

In my encounter there was activity leading up to the grab attempt. I attempted to disengage, but the guy was making a scene and kept harassing myself and others nearby. Back then I was relatively new to OC so I didn't have a recorder, didn't attempt to call for help, or provide any negative feedback when he reached for my weapon. I simply placed a firm grip on the weapon, took a step back, and turned my strong side away from him - including a loud "HANDS OFF".

Now if somebody tried to give me an attitude like this guy did, I would simply scoff and walk away. A grab attempt would result on me still doing anything necessary to create separation between me and the belligerent, regardless of who it was or the circumstances involved - the object is to keep my weapon secure. If the assault continued, then my weapon would probably clear leather.

MSG Laigaie · Jan 10, 2013

Zohan said:
There was another thread posted here that mentioned a posting on CL where the author states something to the effect of: that the OCer should stop carrying or he will come knock him on the head and take his gun away.-Z

I was that OCer. Another member here alerted me to the fact that I was being discussed on CL. The rants went on for a few days, computer bravdo at best. A few other readers warned him that an attempted assault could be dangerous. He stopped writing. I did keep copies and forwarded a set to BPD just in case I had an encounter.

Have someone test your retention. Empty the weapon (put it back in the holster) and have someone try to pull the weapon away from different angles. You will feel more confident after you learn your retention limitations.

SeattleWingsfan · Jan 10, 2013

I am keenly aware of who is around me. I don't let people get too close if I don't know them. The biggest thing for me is waiting in line at places like Walmart. People sometimes get right behind you. I turn and say get out of my personal space and people always back up. Only had one guy tell his wife wtf is his problem after backing up. To which I told his wife, my problem is I do not know your husband, and I don't know what his intentions are. For everyone's safety it,s best not to creep up on people that carry guns.

skeith5 · Jan 10, 2013

SeattleWingsfan said:
I am keenly aware of who is around me. I don't let people get too close if I don't know them. The biggest thing for me is waiting in line at places like Walmart. People sometimes get right behind you. I turn and say get out of my personal space and people always back up. Only had one guy tell his wife wtf is his problem after backing up. To which I told his wife, my problem is I do not know your husband, and I don't know what his intentions are. For everyone's safety it,s best not to creep up on people that carry guns.

That's interesting, people usually don't line up behind me if I'm oc'ing... I don't know why. That being said, when there is someone behind me I usually stand sideways and make at least a friendly remark of some kind. Usually to show the person that I'm "OK" even though I'm carrying. It also helps to gauge if they are going to be hostile or not. As someone said it's all about situational awareness.

SeattleWingsfan · Jan 10, 2013

For the most part people stay far enough away. I think mostly because it's obvious I turn and move to keep my strong side safe. But every once in a while it happens. Politely asking for a little room with a smile goes a long way. If its packed walking through a crowd, I will either pull my shirt or coat over it, or use my elbow to guard it.

Batousaii · Jan 10, 2013

~ b.u.g. ~

Also note that many open carriers carry a back up gun. Grabbing their primary would present a clear and immediate threat.

WalkingWolf · Jan 10, 2013

I can only remember two gun grabs, both in uniform, both females. One was a nurse who thought it would be funny, a fractured wrist turned out to be not so funny. The other was while I was trying to restrain the woman's husband. I shoved him away long enough to secure my gun turn and break her nose. I have never had a gun grab attempted while OCing not in uniform. Most people either out of respect, or fear(who knows) do not get that close even in store lines. But that does not mean we should be slack, always be aware and attempt to keep firearm in a assessable position.

I think even the numpties assume there is a real chance to get shot with such stupidity.

Sparky508 · Jan 10, 2013

Batousaii said:
Also note that many open carriers carry a back up gun. Grabbing their primary would present a clear and immediate threat.

Roger that.

rapgood · Jan 10, 2013

Don't go grabbing for anyone's gun...

Robbery.
A person commits robbery when he or she unlawfully takes personal property from the person of another or in his or her presence against his or her will by the use or threatened use of immediate force, violence, or fear of injury to that person or his or her property or the person or property of anyone. Such force or fear must be used to obtain or retain possession of the property, or to prevent or overcome resistance to the taking; in either of which cases the degree of force is immaterial. Such taking constitutes robbery whenever it appears that, although the taking was fully completed without the knowledge of the person from whom taken, such knowledge was prevented by the use of force or fear.

(1) A person is guilty of robbery in the first degree if:
(a) In the commission of a robbery or of immediate flight therefrom, he or she:
(i) Is armed with a deadly weapon

Robbery in the First Degree is a Class A felony.

Theft of a Firearm.
(1) A person is guilty of theft of a firearm if he or she commits a theft of any firearm.

Theft of a Firearm is a Class B felony.

Criminal Attempt.
(1) A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime if, with intent to commit a specific crime, he or she does any act which is a substantial step toward the commission of that crime.
. . .
(3) An attempt to commit a crime is a:
(a) Class A felony when the crime attempted is murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, arson in the first degree, child molestation in the first degree, indecent liberties by forcible compulsion, rape in the first degree, rape in the second degree, rape of a child in the first degree, or rape of a child in the second degree;
(b) Class B felony when the crime attempted is a class A felony other than an offense listed in (a) of this subsection;
(c) Class C felony when the crime attempted is a class B felony;

decklin · Jan 10, 2013

Batousaii said:
Also note that many open carriers carry a back up gun. Grabbing their primary would present a clear and immediate threat.

Yep.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
I can only remember two gun grabs, both in uniform, both females. One was a nurse who thought it would be funny, a fractured wrist turned out to be not so funny. The other was while I was trying to restrain the woman's husband. I shoved him away long enough to secure my gun turn and break her nose. I have never had a gun grab attempted while OCing not in uniform. Most people either out of respect, or fear(who knows) do not get that close even in store lines. But that does not mean we should be slack, always be aware and attempt to keep firearm in a assessable position.

I think even the numpties assume there is a real chance to get shot with such stupidity.

Your experiences as an officer and as a civilian (not on duty) is a good example of the empirical evidence that has been presented here on OCDO for sometime. Thank you for sharing.

gogodawgs · Jan 10, 2013

SeattleWingsfan said:
I am keenly aware of who is around me. I don't let people get too close if I don't know them. The biggest thing for me is waiting in line at places like Walmart. People sometimes get right behind you. I turn and say get out of my personal space and people always back up. Only had one guy tell his wife wtf is his problem after backing up. To which I told his wife, my problem is I do not know your husband, and I don't know what his intentions are. For everyone's safety it,s best not to creep up on people that carry guns.

Are you left-handed?

I find that I can always get into a line at a store with my firearm away from the person behind me, but I am right handed.

Trigger Dr · Jan 10, 2013

jsanchez said:
This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If it was me I would size up the situration. Is the person fooling around, if they are I would tell them thats not cool and what were you thinking, and then listen to their reply.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

Now that I think of it, I only had one occasion where someone kept going to my gun side and acted like he may take my gun, he was talking crazy about wanting a gun to kill someone. It was at Cal Anderson Park a week before the aclu was having a annaverery party there. The person was that indian guy Williams that was shot by the police a couple of weeks later. He made me so nearvous I had to walk away from him.

I don't know what ou are smoking but it really has you messed up.

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