Gun grab questions

Sparky508 · Jan 10, 2013

Sparky508 · Jan 10, 2013

Or in the case of two assailants........

TheGunMan · Jan 10, 2013

Ditto

SeattleWingsfan said:
I am keenly aware of who is around me. I don't let people get too close if I don't know them. The biggest thing for me is waiting in line at places like Walmart. People sometimes get right behind you. I turn and say get out of my personal space and people always back up. Only had one guy tell his wife wtf is his problem after backing up. To which I told his wife, my problem is I do not know your husband, and I don't know what his intentions are. For everyone's safety it,s best not to creep up on people that carry guns.

This is what I also do.

OrangeIsTrouble · Jan 11, 2013

1245A Defender said:
Out of the dozens of threads where the Birking of Williams was extensively written about,,,
Why did you never mention this interesting and relevent little tidbit?

Defender, I seem to faintly remember him posting about that.

Back to topic, one hand pushes down on the holstered firearm and a quick spin with the elbow out immediately. Calling 911 is a very good idea even if there is no longer a threat. Otherwise someone could call 911 on you and say you are screwing around with a firearm.

EMNofSeattle · Jan 11, 2013

1245A Defender said:
Out of the dozens of threads where the Birking of Williams was extensively written about,,,
Why did you never mention this interesting and relevent little tidbit?

?

probably becuase Eric didn't see Williams again until his picture was plastered on the media, I was chased and yelled at by someone who I'm nearly certain was williams when I was 16 at Westlake park in Seattle. I base this on how similiar that guy looked to the picture in the media source.

EMNofSeattle · Jan 11, 2013

gogodawgs said:
Are you left-handed?

I find that I can always get into a line at a store with my firearm away from the person behind me, but I am right handed.

When I was OCing in Montana and walked into a store in line I just placed my arm straight in a line behind the grip of the gun, I figured that way someone would have to move my arm or walk directly to my side to take it, thus reduced sneak attacks.

but truthfully, other then ACmariner I've never heard of a civilian OCer gun grab. OC folks are not cops, they don't actively deal with felons or emotionally unstable people all day. virtually no one has a reason to fear going back to jail when an OCer walks by, so I don't think a gun grab like what happens to cops is likely for a LAC who carries in the open.

jsanchez · Jan 11, 2013

Trigger Dr said:
I don't know what ou are smoking but it really has you messed up.

I'm an Eagle Scout and I have never smoked anything is my life, but thanks for the personal attack.

jsanchez · Jan 11, 2013

1245A Defender said:
Out of the dozens of threads where the Birking of Williams was extensively written about,,,
Why did you never mention this interesting and relevent little tidbit?

I might have mentioned it under a thread about the ACLU annaversary party under my previous avatar "Seattleric007", Or it was around the time I, how can I say this nicely, on hiatus from the form.

jsanchez · Jan 11, 2013

Orphan said:
jsanchez said:

in the adams apple trying to kill them.

Wow I would only be trying to stop the threat, but that is just me.

Click to expand...

I agree with you 110%. But I typed it, so I own it. But your point is right on. Thanks.

Trigger Dr · Jan 11, 2013

jsanchez said:
This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

jsanchez said:

Not intended as a personal attack, but more to show the lack of understanding of escalation of force. One is allowed to use "Only that amount of force necessary to neutralize the threat"
Draw down on them if necessary and place safe distance between yourself and the threat. Not shoot them in the head or strike them in the adams apple and try to kill them.
If you consider this as a personal attack, oh well,....... I cannot help what you think.

Click to expand...

Freedom1Man · Jan 11, 2013

rapgood said:
Robbery.
A person commits robbery when he or she unlawfully takes personal property from the person of another or in his or her presence against his or her will by the use or threatened use of immediate force, violence, or fear of injury to that person or his or her property or the person or property of anyone. Such force or fear must be used to obtain or retain possession of the property, or to prevent or overcome resistance to the taking; in either of which cases the degree of force is immaterial. Such taking constitutes robbery whenever it appears that, although the taking was fully completed without the knowledge of the person from whom taken, such knowledge was prevented by the use of force or fear.

(1) A person is guilty of robbery in the first degree if:
(a) In the commission of a robbery or of immediate flight therefrom, he or she:
(i) Is armed with a deadly weapon

Robbery in the First Degree is a Class A felony.

Theft of a Firearm.
(1) A person is guilty of theft of a firearm if he or she commits a theft of any firearm.

Theft of a Firearm is a Class B felony.

Criminal Attempt.
(1) A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime if, with intent to commit a specific crime, he or she does any act which is a substantial step toward the commission of that crime.
. . .
(3) An attempt to commit a crime is a:
(a) Class A felony when the crime attempted is murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, arson in the first degree, child molestation in the first degree, indecent liberties by forcible compulsion, rape in the first degree, rape in the second degree, rape of a child in the first degree, or rape of a child in the second degree;
(b) Class B felony when the crime attempted is a class A felony other than an offense listed in (a) of this subsection;
(c) Class C felony when the crime attempted is a class B felony;

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

[2011 c 336 § 354; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.050.]

hermannr · Jan 11, 2013

When I first received my Alessi holster for my CZ, my BIL (with my permission...I even purposely held my elbow off to the side) did a simulated gun grab from behind. He could not pull the pistol out towards the rear, though if you pull it out forward, it comes out fairly easily. The way the holster is molded (it is very heavy molded leather) it locks the front sight into the holster...the harder you pull to the rear, the harder the lock....you actually have to push down, then pull forward to get the holster to release if this happens. A good holster helps.

Second...in 42+ years of carry, no-one has ever attempted a real gun grab. My experience is, those that would do you harm would rather live another day rather than risk getting shot. As WalkingWolf has stated...when in uniform, you can be put into situations a private person should avoid at all costs.

jsanchez · Jan 11, 2013

Trigger Dr said:
jsanchez said:

This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

jsanchez said:

Not intended as a personal attack, but more to show the lack of understanding of escalation of force. One is allowed to use "Only that amount of force necessary to neutralize the threat"
Draw down on them if necessary and place safe distance between yourself and the threat. Not shoot them in the head or strike them in the adams apple and try to kill them.
If you consider this as a personal attack, oh well,....... I cannot help what you think.

Click to expand...

The personal attack I was referencing was your suggestion that I was under the influence of a smoked chemical, did you not make that reference?

AS far as understanding escalation of force, I have used lethal force and was not charged in anyway, shape or form. How about you, have you ever used lethal force on another living human being?

Click to expand...

Trigger Dr · Jan 11, 2013

jsanchez said:
Trigger Dr said:

jsanchez said:

This is my opinion and mine alone. I don't know of anyone ever having there gun grabed in open carry, but I don't know everything.

If they seriously tried to take my weapon I would do two things. One, I would drive my fingers into there eyes and strike them in the adams apple trying to kill them. If for some reason that didn't work or there were more attackers, Two I would pull my pocket pistol out and shoot them in the head. Then I would call the cops and my lawyer, and wife, and wait for the cops, and use my phone camera to take video of the witnesses using the Quik app.

I don't know if this is the proper way to handle it, but hopefully someone here will correct if i'm wrong.

The personal attack I was referencing was your suggestion that I was under the influence of a smoked chemical, did you not make that reference?

AS far as understanding escalation of force, I have used lethal force and was not charged in anyway, shape or form. How about you, have you ever used lethal force on another living human being?

Click to expand...

Read the PM I am sending.

Click to expand...

aa1911 · Jan 11, 2013

I carry a concealed BUG in addition to my primary OC sidearm. But my first reaction is to clamp down on the 'inquiring' hand and draw my BUG (weakside). Chances are very rare but you always need to be vigilant. Most importantly, be ready to use it if necessary. Anyone dumb enough to seriously attempt a disarm has a death wish. To caveat that, you need to decide if that person is a serious threat and is it worth taking a life? It can be a tough one and can happen quicker than many could decide. situational awareness will help you avoid 99% of the chance of being disarmed, methinks anyway. But if someone is dumb enough to try such foolish action, GAME ON. I'm gonna get real excited real quick.

In the disarm practice we've tried among my friends (unloaded of course), it's quite difficult to actually accomplish, even with non-retention holsters. Ya gotta reach in quick like a snake and get it just perfect, otherwise you risk getting a broken appendage or smacked pretty quick! It's pretty tough to do really, much harder than I would have imagined. Add in retention holster for extra protection although not necessary IMO.

my dos centavos

tombrewster421 · Jan 11, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
When I was OCing in Montana and walked into a store in line I just placed my arm straight in a line behind the grip of the gun, I figured that way someone would have to move my arm or walk directly to my side to take it, thus reduced sneak attacks.

but truthfully, other then ACmariner I've never heard of a civilian OCer gun grab. OC folks are not cops, they don't actively deal with felons or emotionally unstable people all day. virtually no one has a reason to fear going back to jail when an OCer walks by, so I don't think a gun grab like what happens to cops is likely for a LAC who carries in the open.

There was ONE case of a citizen gun grab last year somewhere in the Midwest. Some kid felon took the guys gun and when the guy gave chase the kid shot him. This is the only case of private citizen I've ever heard of and the news didn't say anything in regards to the type of holster he was using. I'd be willing to bet that it did not have retention and his SA was severely lacking. I'll see if I can google up a news link.

tombrewster421 · Jan 11, 2013

Ok, so the original news stories are no longer available but I managed to find one about the sentencing of the perps. Also is the link to the thread I found it in.

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2012/02/17/6127119.htm
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?106672-1st-case-of-OC-er-killed-for-OC-ing

hermannr · Jan 12, 2013

tombrewster421 said:
Ok, so the original news stories are no longer available but I managed to find one about the sentencing of the perps. Also is the link to the thread I found it in.

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2012/02/17/6127119.htm
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?106672-1st-case-of-OC-er-killed-for-OC-ing

After reading the link to the story, I think this is a perfect example of what our Juvinile courts do to public safety. These were teens, and I'll bet they though they would only get slappend on the wrist and let go (like the 15 had happen) again.

When there are no serious consiquences for serious crime, what kind of message do you think that sends to these kids?

EMNofSeattle · Jan 12, 2013

lesson number 1

Carry a back-up piece while OCing

lesson number 2

if you don't have a back-up piece and some punk steals your gun that you know is loaded, don't chase him!

lesson number 3

if you're ocing without a concealed backup gun, refer to rule #1

WalkingWolf · Jan 12, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
lesson number 1

Carry a back-up piece while OCing

lesson number 2

if you don't have a back-up piece and some punk steals your gun that you know is loaded, don't chase him!

lesson number 3

if you're ocing without a concealed backup gun, refer to rule #1

There is no rule that a BUG needs to be concealed, and even with a BUG don't chase armed bad guys. The time to use the BUG is during the grab.

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