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Thread: Producing ID without RAS, PC ruling?

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Producing ID without RAS, PC ruling?

    After watching this video I was wondering if KY had any court ruling on providing ID upon request? The man in the video was arrested (not sure what state this was) for not producing an ID and lost his case in Supreme Court. Any ideas how we stand with this in KY?

    I have tried to research this myself but can't find a thing.
    Last edited by self preservation; 01-10-2013 at 01:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    After watching this video I was wondering if KY had any court ruling on providing ID upon request? The man in the video was arrested (not sure what state this was) for not producing an ID and lost his case in Supreme Court. Any ideas how we stand with this in KY?

    I have tried to research this myself but can't find a thing.
    While I'm no authority on the subject, I know some states require you to produce ID on request. I /think/ in Kentucky you must only present ID if you are pulled over while operating a motor vehicle. There may be other circumstances. I've seen the topic of ID on here before and I think that's correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    After watching this video I was wondering if KY had any court ruling on providing ID upon request? The man in the video was arrested (not sure what state this was) for not producing an ID and lost his case in Supreme Court. Any ideas how we stand with this in KY?

    I have tried to research this myself but can't find a thing.
    The video shows Larry Hiibel. The case is Hiibel vs 6th Judicial Court (of Nevada, Humboldt County).

    Just so nobody gets too thrown off by the video comments, the cop's RAS for compelling identity was a report of a man and woman fighting or something. The case was about whether the Nevada statute that compelled identity violated the 5A right against self-incrimination. The Supreme Court decided it didn't and upheld Hiibel's conviction for refusing to identify himself.

    Personally, I think its kinda cool we can see on video the actual Terry Stop that led to the US Supreme Court decision. That's gotta be a first; can't be too many of those around.

    Here's the case. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html Be sure to read the dissents, too. Verrry interesting.

    Here's more on providing identity info to a cop: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-10-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The video shows Larry Hiibel. The case is Hiibel vs 6th Judicial Court (of Nevada, Humboldt County).

    Just so nobody gets too thrown off by the video comments, the cop's RAS for compelling identity was a report of a man and woman fighting or something. The case was about whether the Nevada statute that compelled identity violated the 5A right against self-incrimination. The Supreme Court decided it didn't and upheld Hiibel's conviction for refusing to identify himself.

    Personally, I think its kinda cool we can see on video the actual Terry Stop that led to the US Supreme Court decision. That's gotta be a first; can't be too many of those around.

    Here's the case. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html Be sure to read the dissents, too. Verrry interesting.

    Here's more on providing identity info to a cop: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    Thanks for the great info..
    Last edited by self preservation; 01-10-2013 at 02:18 PM.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    Its possible the OPer can't find anything because there isn't anything, but I think its smart to be sure.

    Wikipedia gives a list of states which does not include Kentucky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes. The other google returns look like they could take some time to dig through.

    Happy note: an OCDO thread is the second google return.


    Also, don't forget to consider Kentucky case law. I've come across one or two states where there was no statute compelling identity, but refusal is treated as obstruction of a police officer/justice.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-10-2013 at 02:15 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundiver View Post
    While I'm no authority on the subject, I know some states require you to produce ID on request. I /think/ in Kentucky you must only present ID if you are pulled over while operating a motor vehicle. There may be other circumstances. I've seen the topic of ID on here before and I think that's correct.
    I feel you're correct about only if driving. However, I don't remember ever seeing a cite. And I couldn't find a cite for KY so I was just curious.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Just to be clear....Mr. Hiibel's claim was that his 5A was violated but not his 4th by being forced to show ID?
    I don't clearly recall that 4A was not an issue. But, definitely the 5A was. This is why I list the identity cases under 5A. Even though the earlier case, Brown v Texas was more about 4A.

    In Hiibel's case, the cop did have legal RAS, so that avenue of controversy wasn't really available to Hiibel--he couldn't say the arrest for refusing to identify was unconstitutional because the prerequisite of RAS was absent. Whereas the controversy in Brown's case was that the cops were demanding identity without having any authority to detain him in the first place.

    In any event, Hiibel's case is an easy read. You can double-check it yourself to see if the 4A was an issue.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-10-2013 at 02:36 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundiver View Post
    While I'm no authority on the subject, I know some states require you to produce ID on request. I /think/ in Kentucky you must only present ID if you are pulled over while operating a motor vehicle. There may be other circumstances. I've seen the topic of ID on here before and I think that's correct.
    The way to keep it clear is to distinguish between showing identity and showing a license for a licensed activity. You wouldn't be showing identity during a traffic stop; you would be showing a license for a licensed activity.

    This also helps expose the government's little schemes and abuses. First, you force everyone to be licensed to drive. Then, later, you put the driver's photograph on the license. Eventually, that little document that we were told is for licensing, becomes your official identity paper and the cops start demanding it for other purposes than just to see whether you are licensed to drive.

    Its a little like the social security number. Back in the 1930's, we were "assured" the social security number would only be used for our social security "account." Over time it morphed into an identity number used for taxes, medical records, bank accounts, drivers licenses, etc., etc., etc.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundiver View Post
    While I'm no authority on the subject, I know some states require you to produce ID on request. I /think/ in Kentucky you must only present ID if you are pulled over while operating a motor vehicle. There may be other circumstances. I've seen the topic of ID on here before and I think that's correct.
    Sundiver, if you know Some states that require an ID to be presented upon request, would you mind listing at least One?

    I'm unaware of ANY state that requires its citizens to carry identification documents on a daily basis. The most I've seen is that licenses must be presented when performing licensed activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Sundiver, if you know Some states that require an ID to be presented upon request, would you mind listing at least One?

    I'm unaware of ANY state that requires its citizens to carry identification documents on a daily basis. The most I've seen is that licenses must be presented when performing licensed activities.
    I can't recall which state, but I've actually read the statute of one state that requires a detainee to provide either a drivers license or state ID card, if he has them on his person at that time. This was a sneaky little trick to get around Kolender vs Lawson I am sure.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    After watching this video I was wondering if KY had any court ruling on providing ID upon request? The man in the video was arrested (not sure what state this was) for not producing an ID and lost his case in Supreme Court. Any ideas how we stand with this in KY?

    I have tried to research this myself but can't find a thing.
    If you are being "detained" then you must identify yourself. You do NOT have to show identification, but you must give your first and last name.

    If an officer detained you without proper legal justification then you can sue him after the fact, but if being detained you must identify.

    The only time you must SHOW identification is if you are operating a motor vehicle.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    If you are being "detained" then you must identify yourself. You do NOT have to show identification, but you must give your first and last name.

    If an officer detained you without proper legal justification then you can sue him after the fact, but if being detained you must identify.

    The only time you must SHOW identification is if you are operating a motor vehicle.
    Cite, please.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Sort of along these lines, I just read a 2011 Kentucky Court of Appeals case involving a Terry Stop and a request for I.D.

    The "nut" of the case is an individual was observed walking late at night, in a bad part of town. Circumstances lead to the individual being arrested. The court held that walking late at night, even in a bad part of town was not sufficient for a Terry stop.

    I can't copy the case, but it is Commonwealth V. Sanders 332 S.W. 3rd 73 (Ky. App. 2011)

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