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Thread: 100% tax revenue fix ...

  1. #1
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    100% tax revenue fix ...

    Just start taxing the federal reserve/printing division .. heck, tax them as much as you like ... they can pay, right?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Just start taxing the federal reserve/printing division .. heck, tax them as much as you like ... they can pay, right?
    Of course they can pay, they'll just print more, which then is a tax on us devaluing the fiat money we are forced to use.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    There is no "printing division" of the Federal Reserve System. all those people do is hoard gold and crunch numbers.

    federal reserve notes are printed by the United States Bureau of Engraving and Printing. coins are produced by the United States Mint.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  4. #4
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    There is no "printing division" of the Federal Reserve System. all those people do is hoard gold and crunch numbers.

    federal reserve notes are printed by the United States Bureau of Engraving and Printing. coins are produced by the United States Mint.
    Are you going to use that keyboard to type an argument against what is being said, or just use it for semantics of who does the physical printing ignoring, on who's authority they print the money and the fact that it is a fiat money based on nothing of value.

    Printing more money, is a tax pure and simple. Inflation is a tax. The way the government gets away with it's massive over bloating is by simply making more money out of thin air. Which then devalues the money we work hard to get and destroys the value of our assets. Theft pure and simple.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    There is no "printing division" of the Federal Reserve System. all those people do is hoard gold and crunch numbers.

    federal reserve notes are printed by the United States Bureau of Engraving and Printing. coins are produced by the United States Mint.
    Thanks for the information ... forgot to capitailize the first letter of your 2nd paragraph ... but I ain't no engrlish expert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Are you going to use that keyboard to type an argument against what is being said, or just use it for semantics of who does the physical printing ignoring, on who's authority they print the money and the fact that it is a fiat money based on nothing of value.

    Printing more money, is a tax pure and simple. Inflation is a tax. The way the government gets away with it's massive over bloating is by simply making more money out of thin air. Which then devalues the money we work hard to get and destroys the value of our assets. Theft pure and simple.
    +1 Especially that first part.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Are you going to use that keyboard to type an argument against what is being said, or just use it for semantics of who does the physical printing ignoring, on who's authority they print the money and the fact that it is a fiat money based on nothing of value.

    Printing more money, is a tax pure and simple. Inflation is a tax. The way the government gets away with it's massive over bloating is by simply making more money out of thin air. Which then devalues the money we work hard to get and destroys the value of our assets. Theft pure and simple.
    It may go a lot deeper than that, too.

    I saw yesterday a video by Peter Schiff, CEO of EuroPacific Capital, where he discussed balance of trade and what happens when all the money created out of thin air starts returning to our shores. Suddenly we start paying even more for consumer goods. I didn't fully understand what he was saying--I think he was assuming the listener already understood trade deficits. But, it made sense there would be deeper ramifications than just inflation acting as a tax. By this I mean, a 7-10% real price inflation does not immediately strike me as accounting for all the value-shifting from creating $1.4T out of thin air. Maybe it does; I'm not sure. Certainly, when the $1.4T is created out of thin air by creating debt (aka monetizing debt), then whoever owns the debt instruments is part of the equation. And, if their money starts returning to our shores, it further devalues our money here. So, the upshot seems to be that the price inflation we see here today is not the only price inflation we can get hit with. More can come from the same money printing when the rest of the money comes back from overseas.

    Here is the Schiff video; the trade deficit info is in the latter half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI3N...layer_embedded

    I found the video embedded here: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/

    If anybody can explain Schiff's point further or direct me to an explanation on the web, I'd be greatful.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    It may go a lot deeper than that, too.

    I saw yesterday a video by Peter Schiff, CEO of EuroPacific Capital, where he discussed balance of trade and what happens when all the money created out of thin air starts returning to our shores. Suddenly we start paying even more for consumer goods. I didn't fully understand what he was saying--I think he was assuming the listener already understood trade deficits. But, it made sense there would be deeper ramifications than just inflation acting as a tax. By this I mean, a 7-10% real price inflation does not immediately strike me as accounting for all the value-shifting from creating $1.4T out of thin air. Maybe it does; I'm not sure. Certainly, when the $1.4T is created out of thin air by creating debt (aka monetizing debt), then whoever owns the debt instruments is part of the equation. And, if their money starts returning to our shores, it further devalues our money here. So, the upshot seems to be that the price inflation we see here today is not the only price inflation we can get hit with. More can come from the same money printing when the rest of the money comes back from overseas.

    Here is the Schiff video; the trade deficit info is in the latter half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI3N...layer_embedded

    I found the video embedded here: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/

    If anybody can explain Schiff's point further or direct me to an explanation on the web, I'd be greatful.
    Wow! I never even thought of that aspect. That makes sense on why metals like silver is staying on a fairly static level these last few months. I too would like to know and understand more. I recently read his "Real Crash" intriguing book indeed.

    Of course we can try to hedge against inflation by investing in metal, but then the government taxes an "earning" on the increase of fiats that metal buys even though it really didn't increase in value.

    Thanks for the links!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Wow! I never even thought of that aspect. That makes sense on why metals like silver is staying on a fairly static level these last few months. I too would like to know and understand more. I recently read his "Real Crash" intriguing book indeed.

    Of course we can try to hedge against inflation by investing in metal, but then the government taxes an "earning" on the increase of fiats that metal buys even though it really didn't increase in value.

    Thanks for the links!
    For readers who may not know what he's talking about:

    If you plunk money into savings, price inflation eats away at your savings. One hundred dollars saved twenty years ago only buys, for made-up example, forty dollars worth of goods today.

    But, if you see that losing game and decide to buy silver and gold instead of putting your savings cash into a savings account, the government taxes your profit when you sell the gold later. Inflation drives up the price of your gold, which is just another way of saying the value of the dollar and what it can buy goes down. So, you'd think you could protect yourself against that by buying and holding gold long term. But when you go to sell that gold, which increased in price partly because of price inflation, the government taxes you on the amount that gold went up. Its basically a savings tax.

    In short, they get you going and coming, and close as many doors as possible to you insulating yourself against price inflation caused by arbitrary money printing.

    I worked it out a couple years ago. You could actually lose money to taxes. Meaning, the profit on your gold minus the tax would not necessarily make up for the price inflation.

    They got us locked in, fellas. Collared. Yoked. Chained.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    For readers who may not know what he's talking about:

    If you plunk money into savings, price inflation eats away at your savings. One hundred dollars saved twenty years ago only buys, for made-up example, forty dollars worth of goods today.

    But, if you see that losing game and decide to buy silver and gold instead of putting your savings cash into a savings account, the government taxes your profit when you sell the gold later. Inflation drives up the price of your gold, which is just another way of saying the value of the dollar and what it can buy goes down. So, you'd think you could protect yourself against that by buying and holding gold long term. But when you go to sell that gold, which increased in price partly because of price inflation, the government taxes you on the amount that gold went up. Its basically a savings tax.

    In short, they get you going and coming, and close as many doors as possible to you insulating yourself against price inflation caused by arbitrary money printing.

    I worked it out a couple years ago. You could actually lose money to taxes. Meaning, the profit on your gold minus the tax would not necessarily make up for the price inflation.

    They got us locked in, fellas. Collared. Yoked. Chained.
    That is only if you ignore the law and do what you are told.

    The earnings (even the income) of the average citizen living and working with in the states of the union with no foreign sourced income is not the subject of the income tax at all. So the 'gains' on gold sales is not even taxable.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That is only if you ignore the law and do what you are told.

    The earnings (even the income) of the average citizen living and working with in the states of the union with no foreign sourced income is not the subject of the income tax at all. So the 'gains' on gold sales is not even taxable.
    Kinda irresponsible don't you think--to not clarify whether you are talking about a tax court's interpretation of the law or your own?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That is only if you ignore the law and do what you are told.

    The earnings (even the income) of the average citizen living and working with in the states of the union with no foreign sourced income is not the subject of the income tax at all. So the 'gains' on gold sales is not even taxable.
    I'm sure these arguments will be very entertaining to the cellmate of anyone who tries it....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I'm sure these arguments will be very entertaining to the cellmate of anyone who tries it....
    +1

    He's a solid freedom supporter, but this business of giving out commentary without being clear about it is too much.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Kinda irresponsible don't you think--to not clarify whether you are talking about a tax court's interpretation of the law or your own?
    USSC..... I don't interpret law.

    To understand the law you must find the definition of 'income' to do that you must look to the 1939 edition of the IRC section 22. It defines income as a profit or gain derived from a list of certain activities.

    Also please don't bring up tax court. Tax court is only an ADMINISTRATIVE fact finding court. It has no legal authority to charge you with any thing or lock you up. In the tax court, first I would have to have petitioned to be heard at the tax court. Second even if I was in there (I would never be) the question would be, "have you filed a tax return in the last 10 years?" to which I would have to answer, "no."

    The tax court cannot answer questions of law. So while I have not filed a tax return the tax court cannot answer the question of, "where is there a requirement to file?" It's only there to sort out those facts the you and the IRS agree on. If you and the IRS don't agree on something then the tax court has no authority to make a determination. The tax court cannot issue a subpoena or levy your property.

    So please, please, don't refer to the tax court as a court of law because it's not.

    As for the various court ruling they are all over the board from, the law to too complex to understand, to I can't find 'income' defined in the code, to right or wrong if everyone knew about this the tax system would collapse. Then others are out right lies.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Just a little note about IRS issues and tax courts...

    One is not required to go to tax court. In tax court, the opposing consul is an employee of the IRS .. not favorable. Yuck. Oh, and no jury trial .. just a tax court judge (how fair are they? who knows.)

    You can pay the tax and then request a refund. The IRS has 12 mo or so to respond. From a denial, you can take the case to district court (fed ct). Here the opposing consul is not from the IRS but a normal, sane, federal consul. And you can, I think, ask for a jury trial.

    So one has two routes: tax court or district court.

    Tax court advantage: you don't pay until after the court rules
    Fed. district court advantage: regular proceeding, no IRS direct involvement, jury trial available

    I personally have always gone through the fed. district court route ... and it has saved me tens of thousands of dollars in the single case I had. Did it pro se. The judge was a no nonsense judge ... I filed discovery with the opposing party and the opposing party said that discovery was not available BUT they did discovery at the same time ... when I brought this up to the judge, the judge spent 5 minutes chastising the opposing consul. The consul apologized to me in open court...I appreciated that good gesture.

    After this case, the IRS has not harassed me ... maybe they were harassing me for years because I held a ffl or because of my political views.

    Oh, and after I filed my federal case, Treasury agents were at my door the NEXT day. I promptly booted them off my land.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 01-13-2013 at 11:33 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Just a little note about IRS issues and tax courts...

    One is not required to go to tax court. In tax court, the opposing consul is an employee of the IRS .. not favorable. Yuck. Oh, and no jury trial .. just a tax court judge (how fair are they? who knows.)

    You can pay the tax and then request a refund. The IRS has 12 mo or so to respond. From a denial, you can take the case to district court (fed ct). Here the opposing consul is not from the IRS but a normal, sane, federal consul. And you can, I think, ask for a jury trial.

    So one has two routes: tax court or district court.

    Tax court advantage: you don't pay until after the court rules
    Fed. district court advantage: regular proceeding, no IRS direct involvement, jury trial available

    I personally have always gone through the fed. district court route ... and it has saved me tens of thousands of dollars in the single case I had. Did it pro se. The judge was a no nonsense judge ... I filed discovery with the opposing party and the opposing party said that discovery was not available BUT they did discovery at the same time ... when I brought this up to the judge, the judge spent 5 minutes chastising the opposing consul. The consul apologized to me in open court...I appreciated that good gesture.

    After this case, the IRS has not harassed me ... maybe they were harassing me for years because I held a ffl or because of my political views.

    Oh, and after I filed my federal case, Treasury agents were at my door the NEXT day. I promptly booted them off my land.
    Where you being charge with failure to file a form 8288 or was it for a "bared assessment" ? Did you ever learn?

    I know that most cases, I would guess that it's well over 90%, when you look at the investigation documents you'll find that it's either for a form 8288 or a "bared assessment" and that none of the cases are for failure to file a form 1040. That is, I am sure, why the IRS did not have any discovery.

    You should pull a copy of your Individual Master File sometime too. I am willing to bet that it's got a 3 digit identifier for you while humans are only to have a 2 digit number. 3 digits is a business type. 2 digits is a human (person) type.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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