John Carlson show, today about CPLs and shootings

EMNofSeattle · Jan 11, 2013

So I was up early today and tuned in to the John Carlson show to hear him talking about Piers Morgan and mass shootings. he then fact-checked a claim by Raph..... some east coast sounding name i can't remember... of WA ceasefire that not one mass shooting was stopped by a CPL holder.
So I called in and shared an opinion about the Oregon mall shooting (anyone who was listening would know the call) and then brought up my theory for why none of ceasefires "mass shootings" were stopped by CPL licensees, which was that most LACs will leave the scene of a shooting if they can do so safely and not be a gunslinger at the scene. I hope I made it clear I didn't speak for everyone when on the radio...

But other thing was, A caller called in and described in great detail how he used his gun to protect his wife in a bank robbery in 1995.
John confirmed the story, here's the article here from the Seattle Times that details talks about how the caller subdued the robber. That was amazing to hear that man's story, and a proper use of a lawfully owned firearm to protect your family.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950204&slug=2103074

This was the 5 o clock hour btw. my call was maybe 5:20 or so and the CPL holders story was 5:45 or so.

SGTapone · Jan 11, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
So I was up early today and tuned in to the John Carlson show to hear him talking about Piers Morgan and mass shootings. he then fact-checked a claim by Raph..... some east coast sounding name i can't remember... of WA ceasefire that not one mass shooting was stopped by a CPL holder.
So I called in and shared an opinion about the Oregon mall shooting (anyone who was listening would know the call) and then brought up my theory for why none of ceasefires "mass shootings" were stopped by CPL licensees, which was that most LACs will leave the scene of a shooting if they can do so safely and not be a gunslinger at the scene. I hope I made it clear I didn't speak for everyone when on the radio...

But other thing was, A caller called in and described in great detail how he used his gun to protect his wife in a bank robbery in 1995.
John confirmed the story, here's the article here from the Seattle Times that details talks about how the caller subdued the robber. That was amazing to hear that man's story, and a proper use of a lawfully owned firearm to protect your family.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950204&slug=2103074

I wouldnt call it open carry or CPL. but when I lived in ocean shores my grandparents neighbors were broken into, and the man who lived there held the perp (meth head looking for cash- go figure) at gunpoint until the police arrived. it probably saved his life (elderly gent)

the major flaw with the "no mass shootings have been stopped by a CPL holder" statement is that mass shootings are relatively rare, and anyone who has half a brain is going to try to get out of there. they fail to mention the use of a CPL in preventing more common shootings/crimes.

glad you called in.

Dave Workman · Jan 11, 2013

SGTapone said:
I wouldnt call it open carry or CPL. but when I lived in ocean shores my grandparents neighbors were broken into, and the man who lived there held the perp (meth head looking for cash- go figure) at gunpoint until the police arrived. it probably saved his life (elderly gent)

the major flaw with the "no mass shootings have been stopped by a CPL holder" statement is that mass shootings are relatively rare, and anyone who has half a brain is going to try to get out of there. they fail to mention the use of a CPL in preventing more common shootings/crimes.

glad you called in.

BINGO!

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is up at that hour of the morning.
:lol:

NavyMike · Jan 11, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
SNIP

......of WA ceasefire that not one mass shooting was stopped by a CPL holder.

There are plenty of cases where public shootings have been stopped by someone with a CPL. His statement is misleading because it ignores cases where a perpetrator is stopped after shooting just a few people; hence preventing them from becoming mass shootings. Which seems kind of the point - mass shootings happen because there is no one present with the means to stop it.

EMNofSeattle · Jan 11, 2013

NavyMike said:
There are plenty of cases where public shootings have been stopped by someone with a CPL. His statement is misleading because it ignores cases where a perpetrator is stopped after shooting just a few people; hence preventing them from becoming mass shootings. Which seems kind of the point - mass shootings happen because there is no one present with the means to stop it.

Which is not a point of disagreement, the ideas are not mutually exclusive. All I was trying to say is that despite anti-gunners bloviating about how people carry guns just because they want to kill people and be wyatt earp, is that many LACs will not go looking for a mass shooter and only stop a shooting in progress if the shooter is directly threatening THEM.

1911er · Jan 11, 2013

Mass shootings

The reason there are mass shootings is because the cowards pulling the trigger almost always go to gun free zones. Where law abiding citizens will not unlawfully carry a firearm.

Jeff Hayes · Jan 11, 2013

Dave Workman said:
BINGO!

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is up at that hour of the morning.
:lol:

I hate that argument it is circular and designed to be unanswerable. Of course no mass shooting has been stopped by a CPL holder if a CPL holder had stopped it there would not have been a mass shooting.

SGTapone · Jan 11, 2013

Orphan said:
I hate that argument it is circular and designed to be unanswerable. Of course no mass shooting has been stopped by a CPL holder if a CPL holder had stopped it there would not have been a mass shooting.

I hadn't taken that into account, it is a very circular argument regardless of the regularity of so called "mass shootings". if one is prevented, most people probably wouldnt know about it because it wouldn't make it past the local news stand. the media likes to latch on to tragedy. the higher body count the more media interest.

tombrewster421 · Jan 11, 2013

NavyMike said:
There are plenty of cases where public shootings have been stopped by someone with a CPL. His statement is misleading because it ignores cases where a perpetrator is stopped after shooting just a few people; hence preventing them from becoming mass shootings. Which seems kind of the point - mass shootings happen because there is no one present with the means to stop it.

Exactly!

FrayedString · Jan 11, 2013

Orphan said:
I hate that argument it is circular and designed to be unanswerable. Of course no mass shooting has been stopped by a CPL holder if a CPL holder had stopped it there would not have been a mass shooting.

Right on!

ArticleCitedBelow said:
The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

When a citizen steps up to stop a shooter (whether they use a firearm or not) the body count is much lower, so low that they are probably often not even reported as "mass shootings." But take the heroic citizen out of the picture and you get a much worse outcome. I highly recommend reading that article in its entirety!

hermannr · Jan 11, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
So I was up early today and tuned in to the John Carlson show to hear him talking about Piers Morgan and mass shootings. he then fact-checked a claim by Raph..... some east coast sounding name i can't remember... of WA ceasefire that not one mass shooting was stopped by a CPL holder.
So I called in and shared an opinion about the Oregon mall shooting (anyone who was listening would know the call) and then brought up my theory for why none of ceasefires "mass shootings" were stopped by CPL licensees, which was that most LACs will leave the scene of a shooting if they can do so safely and not be a gunslinger at the scene. I hope I made it clear I didn't speak for everyone when on the radio...

But other thing was, A caller called in and described in great detail how he used his gun to protect his wife in a bank robbery in 1995.
John confirmed the story, here's the article here from the Seattle Times that details talks about how the caller subdued the robber. That was amazing to hear that man's story, and a proper use of a lawfully owned firearm to protect your family.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950204&slug=2103074

This was the 5 o clock hour btw. my call was maybe 5:20 or so and the CPL holders story was 5:45 or so.

Did anyone bring up the fact that all major mass shooting were in GFZ's (or a place the prohibited firearms) that is why no-one was there to stop them.

EMNofSeattle · Jan 11, 2013

hermannr said:
Did anyone bring up the fact that all major mass shooting were in GFZ's (or a place the prohibited firearms) that is why no-one was there to stop them.

eh... That's a more strenous claim to make...

What is a GFZ for instance? is it any place that posts gunbusters? becuase the attitude it seems among many here is that even if the place is posted they'll just conceal and enter anyway if the sign has no force of law.

Then there's the actual intention of a firearms prohibited sign, which may say "no UNLAWFUL possession of firearms, is that a true gunbuster?

even in force of law places, gun free school zone act gives the states alot of leverage, I don't know how different states formulate their gun&school laws. in WA you can come on school premises to drop off a student, in Utah schools are preempted.

Then comes actual penalties and enforcement of said laws and if someone leverages the possible punishment versus the chance of being caught and determines it's worth it. A girl I talked to on the ferry one day said she was 19 and carried a pistol when walking home in bremerton anyway because she was scared after a college girl was stabbed to death on the sidewalk of a main thoroughfare in the city. she said that she did the research, discovered it was only a misdemeanor, and that first time misdemeanants offenses rarely if ever served jail time if sentences were handed down by Bremerton Municipal Court... so the low penalty, plus percieved threat, plus the low probability of being caught, all factored in to say breaking the law is worth it.

I do not agree with the concept of GFZs, they only disarm law-abiding citizens who weren't going to shoot the place up anyway. no criminal ever looked at a GFZ sign and said "damnit, guess i gotta find a different place to commit first degree murder" BUT I'm not willing to make a statement of fact like "every mass shooting has taken place in a GFZ" because then like WA Ceasefire, I run the risk of someone fact checking the claim and saying "actually, your statement is factually incorrect" I try not to make statements of statistical fact unless I can verify the statistic I use. Sometimes I post stuff from a bad source or something incorrect and end up with egg in my face too...

long story short...

Thats why I didn't bring that up. But I do know what you're saying Hermanr.

deanf · Jan 11, 2013

of WA ceasefire that not one mass shooting was stopped by a CPL holder.

Who cares? Stats about this shooting or that, or number of crimes committed or prevented, really have nothing to do with my individual rights. I wish we (in general) would stop letting them frame the issue that way.

compmanio365 · Jan 11, 2013

deanf said:
Who cares? Stats about this shooting or that, or number of crimes committed or prevented, really have nothing to do with my individual rights. I wish we (in general) would stop letting them frame the issue that way.[/COLOR]

Exactly. This is the anti-gunners argument. Stop playing their game. Change it up and make it an issue of human rights, that they are attempting to take away. It really frustrates me lately how our supposed proponents are going on TV and making their argument stronger when the only thing they can say is "Your statistics are false"....it becomes a back and forth with the original inquirer able to claim de-facto victory since you couldn't refute their made up statistics to their satisfaction. Start asking, "Why do you and those who think like you want to deprive me and for that matter, every citizen, of their lawful human right to self defense, not just against the criminal, but against tyranny?" Turn it around on them. Nobody looks good arguing to deprive another person of their rights, and that's exactly what these people are doing.

Lante · Jan 11, 2013

I heard you on the show this morning!

sudden valley gunner · Jan 12, 2013

deanf said:
Who cares? Stats about this shooting or that, or number of crimes committed or prevented, really have nothing to do with my individual rights. I wish we (in general) would stop letting them frame the issue that way.[/COLOR]

True, it is a red herring argument just as much as the "if you got nothing to hide" argument.

Change the debate if you can but if you can't destroy their red herring argument with facts that totally disprove it.

John Carlson show, today about CPLs and shootings

EMNofSeattle

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SGTapone

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Dave Workman

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NavyMike

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EMNofSeattle

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1911er

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Jeff Hayes

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SGTapone

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tombrewster421

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FrayedString

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hermannr

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EMNofSeattle

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deanf

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compmanio365

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Lante

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sudden valley gunner

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